The espresso thread
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Re: The espresso thread
Potential deal on a grinder?
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-coffee-maker-esp ... 1088586621" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-coffee-maker-esp ... 1088586621" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- MitchK
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Re: The espresso thread
Wow, new to the forum... I'm glad to see so many people who get obsessed with quality in their hobbies like myself... Including espresso - which is a big one for me.
My personal choice which so far I've been nothing but happy with for a rig has been a breville dual boiler (920xl, supposedly ironed out the issues with the 900) and a barazta vario. I got them on sale last Halloween from idrinkcoffee.ca bundled together as an upgrade from a breville cafe roma that my girlfriend's parents bought and never used and a crappy faux-burr grinder from president's choice.
I would advise any noobs to make sure they realize how much of a financial investment they're getting into if they are thinking about espresso - not only is the equipment for a good rig not cheap, you usually waste or at least get mediocre results out of the first 40g or so of each bag of coffee as you dial your grind in.
I usually buy my coffee from Java blend. I like the huehuetenango for espresso but hate how embarrassing it is to ask for it as I have no idea how to pronounce it properly. I have ordered online from pilot coffee in the past and honestly they probably have the best coffee in the entire country... But at twice the price of just walking into javablend, and JB is no slouch either. I do wish I could find a more suitable alternative to pilot's "big bro" espresso blend though - one of the coffees in the blend is a natural process Brazilian that adds a lot of sweetness. Best non-standard coffee I've had as espresso (aka not a generic one size fits all espresso blend meant for creamy lattes and dark bold shots) was north mountain brewing's "black pearl" - a natural process from costa rica that pulled syrupy shots that tasted kinda reminiscent of dark chocolates with raspberry filling. I wish I could still get that one.
My personal choice which so far I've been nothing but happy with for a rig has been a breville dual boiler (920xl, supposedly ironed out the issues with the 900) and a barazta vario. I got them on sale last Halloween from idrinkcoffee.ca bundled together as an upgrade from a breville cafe roma that my girlfriend's parents bought and never used and a crappy faux-burr grinder from president's choice.
I would advise any noobs to make sure they realize how much of a financial investment they're getting into if they are thinking about espresso - not only is the equipment for a good rig not cheap, you usually waste or at least get mediocre results out of the first 40g or so of each bag of coffee as you dial your grind in.
I usually buy my coffee from Java blend. I like the huehuetenango for espresso but hate how embarrassing it is to ask for it as I have no idea how to pronounce it properly. I have ordered online from pilot coffee in the past and honestly they probably have the best coffee in the entire country... But at twice the price of just walking into javablend, and JB is no slouch either. I do wish I could find a more suitable alternative to pilot's "big bro" espresso blend though - one of the coffees in the blend is a natural process Brazilian that adds a lot of sweetness. Best non-standard coffee I've had as espresso (aka not a generic one size fits all espresso blend meant for creamy lattes and dark bold shots) was north mountain brewing's "black pearl" - a natural process from costa rica that pulled syrupy shots that tasted kinda reminiscent of dark chocolates with raspberry filling. I wish I could still get that one.
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Re: The espresso thread
Worth a shot for somebody looking to get started?
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.htm ... 1104579378" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.htm ... 1104579378" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- MitchK
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Re: The espresso thread
that looks steam based which is less than ideal.
I think the quinpool superstore is blowing out thermoblock and pump ones for like 80. Shit temperature control but you might be able to mod or replace the baskets to make them non-pressurized (that's what I did with my breville cafe roma that preceded the dual boiler) but then you need an actually good grinder. The pressurized baskets may not produce authentic crema and texture, but they do their intended job well - putting up enough resistance to flow to create proper espresso level pressures even with grind that is too coarse. I would say your main downfall with these thermoblock machines would be A) temperature control (I used to trick my cafe roma into pre-heating better by halfway switching on the steam for a bit then flushing water through in a timed fashion to bring it down) and B) how damn long it takes to switch from shots to steam if you want to make lattes or capps (I got around this by picking up a seperate little milk frother+heater combo by cuisinart at the sears outlet store for like 25 bucks - they normally go for more, but an aerolatte type wand and a microwave works too).
Basically you won't get cafe quality shots without a minimum of a gaggia classic and a baratza virtuoso (mind you, the bar for "cafe quality" is probably a bit lower here than in Toronto... When I visited TO a while back the quality of some of the cafes was unparalleled compared to the ones here. The good ones around here appear to be lion and bright DURING THE DAY WHEN THE BARISTAS ARE WORKING AND NOT THE BARTENDERS, Smiling goat, and at least some of the baristas at JB - I have also had horrendously underextracted shots from JB... In Toronto I mostly stuck with the pilot owned cafes and they were all god-tier IMO) and ideally if you want milk drinks you'd at least upgrade to a CC1 (which is still single boiler like the gaggia, but has PID temperature control and uses a thermoblock to assist in the steam path so it doesn't have to swing the temp as much to switch between steam and shots to speed stuff up).
In general I would with people who say anything below the gaggia and barazta is worthless - I still enjoyed making lattes with my shitty partially modded cafe roma, cuisinart frother, and at the time President's choice faux-burr grinder... But I wasn't going to go to a cafe at 5 am when I get ready for work. I did eventually upgrade to a breville dual boiler and a vario though, so take that as you will (I got the roma for free, the cuisinart for dirt cheap, and the grinder for christmas back when I was only drinking french press. I normally hate buying things that I'm going to obsolete later - I like to buy one, cry once after saving up)
Sorry if I'm daunting you with too much info, but basically I'll give a summary of espresso machine types that might help you:
Steam based: These don't have a pump. They just have a single steam boiler that they either vent into the coffee (almost assuredly burning it) to make "espresso" at about 1.5 bar (moka pot level. "true" espresso is 9 bar or so these days). IMO not worth the effort, but I guess at 20 bucks you're in moka pot price range anyway so if you want a moka pot latte it might be good enough if you truly can't go higher
Thermoblock based: These have a pump but no real boiler. They heat a giant block of metal up with pipes through it in the HOPE of the water coming out the other side being the right temperature for your current application. Obviously that temp can vary a lot and drops heavily if you're pulling a lot of shots in a row as it only has so much thermal mass. This is what the breville cafe roma I had did. Took forever to switch between steam and shots, but I learned it was faster if I did the steam first then purged to cool down to shot level rather than the other way around. I would argue these are definitely worth fooling around with if you can get one cheap/free, but I know many would still say they don't meet their idea of a minimum quality. They usually come with pressurized portafilters which destroy the natural crema and replace it with artificially frothed "crema", so texture suffers but grind size no longer needs to be so precise. Not bad to start with IMO but don't expect cafe quality.
Single boiler machines: Gaggia classic, silvia, crossland (I would say the crossland is basically a pre-modded silvia - it is in about the same price range as the silvia but already has some mods that would cost more on the silvia, so I don't think the silvia is as good of a deal as it was back when it was the de facto standard starter machine). Pretty standard. Takes a while to change boiler temps as they use one for steam and shots (usually a switch to change boiler temp). The CC1 uses a thermoblock to cheat the steam up and has a PID for shot temp, making it the clear winner of this group IMO, but the gaggia is cheaper.
Heat exchanger machines: Technically still a single boiler + pump, but the single boiler is a dedicated steam boiler, and the shot water is pumped via a pipe THROUGH the steam boiler to basically steal some heat from it as it goes through (hoping to end up with a good shot temperature at the end). These can do just great for all purposes IF you are willing to put a little effort in. Temperature of the water drifts way too high if water is allowed to sit still in the lines (as its sitting in the steam boiler) so you have to purge to get down to temperature if you haven't pulled a shot in the last minute or so. These are how most cheaper cafe machines work. They are capable of steaming and pulling a shot at the same time. I don't have any real experience using or researching these because I went with a pretty good value pick (IMHO) in the next category.
Dual boiler machines: Full independent brew and steam boilers. The king of machines IMO, with the potential disadvantage of higher energy consumption (which in most home machines meant to be plugged into 110v equates to a weaker steam boiler and/or a smaller brew boiler to keep themselves within the 15 amp limit). Usually expensive, but the breville dual boiler (my machine) is honestly cheaper than most italian heat exchanger machines, and so far has given me no problems (I'm about a year in) and feels super solid to me. Steam isn't as powerful as most HX unless you get a 220v one, so that' something to consider if you like super large sized milk drinks, but for someone like me that mostly does cap/flat white ratios and occasionally a full size "Standard" latte I have had no issues steaming my milk while the shot pulls. HIGHLY recommended if you're looking for an "endgame" setup that doesn't cost 7k+ because IMO the only POSSIBLE next step for me would be a la marzocco GS/3 or a single group slayer, and even then the GS/3 lacks some of the extra features of my BDB (automatic cleaning/backflushing cycles, auto-on, etc) but is in general a much more beefy machine... And frankly the BDB does what it does well enough that I can't see me upgrading from there without somehow inheriting millions from a rich uncle I don't know about... The money would be better spent on homebrewing, musical instruments, other kitchen gadgets, etc...
TL;DR: I wouldn't bother with a steam machine like that, but there are dirt cheap thermoblock machines out there that aren't as bad as some snobs claim. Cafe quality? Probably not. Worth drinking? IMO yes.
I think the quinpool superstore is blowing out thermoblock and pump ones for like 80. Shit temperature control but you might be able to mod or replace the baskets to make them non-pressurized (that's what I did with my breville cafe roma that preceded the dual boiler) but then you need an actually good grinder. The pressurized baskets may not produce authentic crema and texture, but they do their intended job well - putting up enough resistance to flow to create proper espresso level pressures even with grind that is too coarse. I would say your main downfall with these thermoblock machines would be A) temperature control (I used to trick my cafe roma into pre-heating better by halfway switching on the steam for a bit then flushing water through in a timed fashion to bring it down) and B) how damn long it takes to switch from shots to steam if you want to make lattes or capps (I got around this by picking up a seperate little milk frother+heater combo by cuisinart at the sears outlet store for like 25 bucks - they normally go for more, but an aerolatte type wand and a microwave works too).
Basically you won't get cafe quality shots without a minimum of a gaggia classic and a baratza virtuoso (mind you, the bar for "cafe quality" is probably a bit lower here than in Toronto... When I visited TO a while back the quality of some of the cafes was unparalleled compared to the ones here. The good ones around here appear to be lion and bright DURING THE DAY WHEN THE BARISTAS ARE WORKING AND NOT THE BARTENDERS, Smiling goat, and at least some of the baristas at JB - I have also had horrendously underextracted shots from JB... In Toronto I mostly stuck with the pilot owned cafes and they were all god-tier IMO) and ideally if you want milk drinks you'd at least upgrade to a CC1 (which is still single boiler like the gaggia, but has PID temperature control and uses a thermoblock to assist in the steam path so it doesn't have to swing the temp as much to switch between steam and shots to speed stuff up).
In general I would with people who say anything below the gaggia and barazta is worthless - I still enjoyed making lattes with my shitty partially modded cafe roma, cuisinart frother, and at the time President's choice faux-burr grinder... But I wasn't going to go to a cafe at 5 am when I get ready for work. I did eventually upgrade to a breville dual boiler and a vario though, so take that as you will (I got the roma for free, the cuisinart for dirt cheap, and the grinder for christmas back when I was only drinking french press. I normally hate buying things that I'm going to obsolete later - I like to buy one, cry once after saving up)
Sorry if I'm daunting you with too much info, but basically I'll give a summary of espresso machine types that might help you:
Steam based: These don't have a pump. They just have a single steam boiler that they either vent into the coffee (almost assuredly burning it) to make "espresso" at about 1.5 bar (moka pot level. "true" espresso is 9 bar or so these days). IMO not worth the effort, but I guess at 20 bucks you're in moka pot price range anyway so if you want a moka pot latte it might be good enough if you truly can't go higher
Thermoblock based: These have a pump but no real boiler. They heat a giant block of metal up with pipes through it in the HOPE of the water coming out the other side being the right temperature for your current application. Obviously that temp can vary a lot and drops heavily if you're pulling a lot of shots in a row as it only has so much thermal mass. This is what the breville cafe roma I had did. Took forever to switch between steam and shots, but I learned it was faster if I did the steam first then purged to cool down to shot level rather than the other way around. I would argue these are definitely worth fooling around with if you can get one cheap/free, but I know many would still say they don't meet their idea of a minimum quality. They usually come with pressurized portafilters which destroy the natural crema and replace it with artificially frothed "crema", so texture suffers but grind size no longer needs to be so precise. Not bad to start with IMO but don't expect cafe quality.
Single boiler machines: Gaggia classic, silvia, crossland (I would say the crossland is basically a pre-modded silvia - it is in about the same price range as the silvia but already has some mods that would cost more on the silvia, so I don't think the silvia is as good of a deal as it was back when it was the de facto standard starter machine). Pretty standard. Takes a while to change boiler temps as they use one for steam and shots (usually a switch to change boiler temp). The CC1 uses a thermoblock to cheat the steam up and has a PID for shot temp, making it the clear winner of this group IMO, but the gaggia is cheaper.
Heat exchanger machines: Technically still a single boiler + pump, but the single boiler is a dedicated steam boiler, and the shot water is pumped via a pipe THROUGH the steam boiler to basically steal some heat from it as it goes through (hoping to end up with a good shot temperature at the end). These can do just great for all purposes IF you are willing to put a little effort in. Temperature of the water drifts way too high if water is allowed to sit still in the lines (as its sitting in the steam boiler) so you have to purge to get down to temperature if you haven't pulled a shot in the last minute or so. These are how most cheaper cafe machines work. They are capable of steaming and pulling a shot at the same time. I don't have any real experience using or researching these because I went with a pretty good value pick (IMHO) in the next category.
Dual boiler machines: Full independent brew and steam boilers. The king of machines IMO, with the potential disadvantage of higher energy consumption (which in most home machines meant to be plugged into 110v equates to a weaker steam boiler and/or a smaller brew boiler to keep themselves within the 15 amp limit). Usually expensive, but the breville dual boiler (my machine) is honestly cheaper than most italian heat exchanger machines, and so far has given me no problems (I'm about a year in) and feels super solid to me. Steam isn't as powerful as most HX unless you get a 220v one, so that' something to consider if you like super large sized milk drinks, but for someone like me that mostly does cap/flat white ratios and occasionally a full size "Standard" latte I have had no issues steaming my milk while the shot pulls. HIGHLY recommended if you're looking for an "endgame" setup that doesn't cost 7k+ because IMO the only POSSIBLE next step for me would be a la marzocco GS/3 or a single group slayer, and even then the GS/3 lacks some of the extra features of my BDB (automatic cleaning/backflushing cycles, auto-on, etc) but is in general a much more beefy machine... And frankly the BDB does what it does well enough that I can't see me upgrading from there without somehow inheriting millions from a rich uncle I don't know about... The money would be better spent on homebrewing, musical instruments, other kitchen gadgets, etc...
TL;DR: I wouldn't bother with a steam machine like that, but there are dirt cheap thermoblock machines out there that aren't as bad as some snobs claim. Cafe quality? Probably not. Worth drinking? IMO yes.
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Re: The espresso thread
One would think at first glance - and yes, would probably need some enhancing - but note here, on page 2 of the review:
One big surprise for me was when I opened the machine up for a little sniffing around. As I cracked open the case, staring right at me was a Ulka 41W vibratory pump - the very same pump that sits inside the Rancilio Silvia! I wouldn't have guessed it because the machine "sounds" different from my Silvia in operation. With this kind of pump doing the hard work, I was even more hard pressed to understand why the machine is sold with a pressurized portafilter. Convenience, convenience, convenience, I suppose.
- MitchK
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Re: The espresso thread
in that case at 20 bucks you have nothing to lose
Also: the pressurization in it is built into the portafilter rather than the basket, so you could use a holesaw to make it into a bottomless aka naked portafilter if you got a good grinder later.
Also: the pressurization in it is built into the portafilter rather than the basket, so you could use a holesaw to make it into a bottomless aka naked portafilter if you got a good grinder later.
- mckay75
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Re: The espresso thread
buy mine:
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.htm ... 1101706793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.htm ... 1101706793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- MitchK
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Re: The espresso thread
that cafe roma with interchangeable baskets for pressurized/non-pressurized is literally the setup I had, and at $100 that's not a bad deal at all.
Would recommend if you're not sure enough of your underlying espresso obsession to splurge on a thousand+ dollar setup right off the bat
Would recommend if you're not sure enough of your underlying espresso obsession to splurge on a thousand+ dollar setup right off the bat
- Keggermeister
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Europiccola $200
Not my machine. but a Killer deal! Parts can be found at orphanespresso.com
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-coffee-maker-esp ... 1125584212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-coffee-maker-esp ... 1125584212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Europiccola $200
Damn! Needs work obviously but that's about $200 less than any I found on eBay when I was looking last year. Almost worth buying and fixing up to sell again
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Re: The espresso thread
Should add too - if anyone does go for this, try Espressotec out of Vancouver for parts as well. Canadian prices worked out better for me with the exchange rate as it is right now and given what you'd need for this guy you'd qualify for free shipping.
- Keggermeister
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Re: Europiccola $200
I considered buying it for a minute.BobbyOK wrote:Damn! Needs work obviously but that's about $200 less than any I found on eBay when I was looking last year. Almost worth buying and fixing up to sell again
I already have one that I don't use though!
They are a great machine.
- MitchK
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Re: The espresso thread
yeah if I had seen a 200 dollar la pavoni lever, needing work or not, I wouldn't have spent so much on my breville dual boiler (though the pavoni does have a pretty steep learning curve I hear)
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Re: The espresso thread
They are capable of pulling a great shot but overheat quickly and can't steam worth a fuck. Otherwise lovely
- MitchK
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Re: The espresso thread
Some friends of mine bought it! They don't really have the means to drop $1450 or more on a vario + breville dual boiler/equivalent Portuguese alternative on a setup so once they get a half decent grinder and replace whatever gaskets need replacing I think they'll do alright (they don't really do milk drinks anyway, so the steam wand probably won't see much use)
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Re: The espresso thread
Anyone still reading this thread?
I've got an Isomac Tea (heat exchange with e61 group) for sale on the 'ji- with an espresso grinder.
Would cut a deal for a brewnoser.
Nice to see some coffee geeks here too.
I've got an Isomac Tea (heat exchange with e61 group) for sale on the 'ji- with an espresso grinder.
Would cut a deal for a brewnoser.
Nice to see some coffee geeks here too.
- NASH
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Re: The espresso thread
Is this the original or the Tea II??Mr.Cheezle wrote:Anyone still reading this thread?
I've got an Isomac Tea (heat exchange with e61 group) for sale on the 'ji- with an espresso grinder.
Would cut a deal for a brewnoser.
Nice to see some coffee geeks here too.
Also, any good reason your ad is a copy/paste of this ebay auction in Toronto? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Isomac-Tea-Espre ... SwYaFWgI~c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The espresso thread
No that's my ad - I can't change the location of the listing - won't save my current address as default.
It's a TEA II
It's a TEA II
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Re: The espresso thread
I think it's a II simply because the original owner - whom I bought it from - bought it new in 2008
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Re: The espresso thread
So they lied to me when I called in yesterday. I was at Petes in Sunnyside so I decided to pop in Cucina Moderna, and sure enough they had not one, but TWO tampers that were 49 & 50mm..$8.99 later I am a happy man!
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Re: The espresso thread
Great post. Thanks for sharing.MitchK wrote:Wow, new to the forum... I'm glad to see so many people who get obsessed with quality in their hobbies like myself... Including espresso - which is a big one for me.
My personal choice which so far I've been nothing but happy with for a rig has been a breville dual boiler (920xl, supposedly ironed out the issues with the 900) and a barazta vario. I got them on sale last Halloween from idrinkcoffee.ca bundled together as an upgrade from a breville cafe roma that my girlfriend's parents bought and never used and a crappy faux-burr grinder from president's choice.
I would advise any noobs to make sure they realize how much of a financial investment they're getting into if they are thinking about espresso - not only is the equipment for a good rig not cheap, you usually waste or at least get mediocre results out of the first 40g or so of each bag of coffee as you dial your grind in.
I usually buy my coffee from Java blend. I like the huehuetenango for espresso but hate how embarrassing it is to ask for it as I have no idea how to pronounce it properly. I have ordered online from pilot coffee in the past and honestly they probably have the best coffee in the entire country... But at twice the price of just walking into javablend, and JB is no slouch either. I do wish I could find a more suitable alternative to pilot's "big bro" espresso blend though by reading espresso machine reviews 2017 - one of the coffees in the blend is a natural process Brazilian that adds a lot of sweetness. Best non-standard coffee I've had as espresso (aka not a generic one size fits all espresso blend meant for creamy lattes and dark bold shots) was north mountain brewing's "black pearl" - a natural process from costa rica that pulled syrupy shots that tasted kinda reminiscent of dark chocolates with raspberry filling. I wish I could still get that one.
Last edited by Fooke1994 on Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Keggermeister
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Re: The espresso thread
"whey-whey-ten-ango"MitchK wrote:Wow, new to the forum... I'm glad to see so many people who get obsessed with quality in their hobbies like myself... Including espresso - which is a big one for me.
I like the huehuetenango for espresso but hate how embarrassing it is to ask for it as I have no idea how to pronounce it properly.
- mumblecrunch
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Re: The espresso thread
I usually got with "hway-hway-ten-EN-go". At the very least they don't laugh at me.Keggermeister wrote:"whey-whey-ten-ango"MitchK wrote:Wow, new to the forum... I'm glad to see so many people who get obsessed with quality in their hobbies like myself... Including espresso - which is a big one for me.
I like the huehuetenango for espresso but hate how embarrassing it is to ask for it as I have no idea how to pronounce it properly.
- Keggermeister
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Re: The espresso thread
mumblecrunch wrote:I usually got with "hway-hway-ten-EN-go". At the very least they don't laugh at me.Keggermeister wrote:"whey-whey-ten-ango"MitchK wrote:Wow, new to the forum... I'm glad to see so many people who get obsessed with quality in their hobbies like myself... Including espresso - which is a big one for me.
I like the huehuetenango for espresso but hate how embarrassing it is to ask for it as I have no idea how to pronounce it properly.
- Keggermeister
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Re: The espresso thread
I am selling my Europiccola. It needs an element, some bonehead forgot about it and burned it out.
They are available online for about $75.
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-coffee-maker-esp ... nFlag=true
They are available online for about $75.
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-coffee-maker-esp ... nFlag=true
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