First time Lagering

[hogie]

Here is my recipe:

http://hopville.com/recipe/949321/bohem ... ney-please" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

80% 4.000kg Pilsner Malt
10% 0.500kg Honey
10% 0.500kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine
60 mins 42g Tettnanger pellet 4.5
20 mins 56g Tettnanger pellet 4.5
1 min 28g Tettnanger pellet 4.5
Wyeast Czech Pils (2278)

Original Gravity - 1.053
Final Gravity - 1.015
Color - 3° SRM
Bitterness - 40.7 IBU
Mash Efficiency - 75%

Making the starter tonight and brewing on Sunday.

I am going to make a 1.5L starter. I have read that I should let the starter ferment at room temperature for a day and then put it in the fridge until brew day. Then on brew day morning, take it out of the fridge and let in warm up to room temp (~20C). Sound good?

After the boil, I'll cool the wort down to 20C, discard the top liquid layer in the starter and then pitch the yeast. I'll leave it at 20C for a day, then transfer the bucket to the fridge until fermentation is complete. Then I rack it to the carboy and let it rest for 2 days at room temp. Then back to the fridge until I can't stand it anymore and decide to keg. Sound ok?

[Tony L]

A lot of Cara-pils, but that is ok as I like a sweet lager

As for that starter... by all means make a large starter and if you can't pitch it at high krausen, let it ferment out, decant the spent wort and pitch the yeast.
Ferment the starter at room temps and if you can a 1 gallon starter is better than a 1.5 liter one... more viable yeast.
Next you should pitch your climatized yeast into lager fermenting temps wort... which for me is at 10c or a little lower. This helps keep the production
of diacetyl to a minimum. To pitch cold, you really need a large volume of viable yeast or you'll experience a longer lag time.
Last, don't expect the same vigerous fermentation as you would expect from a ale. Let it run it's course for a 2 to 3 week primary.

Cheers

[NASH]

I am going to make a 1.5L starter. I have read that I should let the starter ferment at room temperature for a day and then put it in the fridge until brew day. Then on brew day morning, take it out of the fridge and let in warm up to room temp (~20C). Sound good?

After the boil, I'll cool the wort down to 20C, discard the top liquid layer in the starter and then pitch the yeast. I'll leave it at 20C for a day, then transfer the bucket to the fridge until fermentation is complete. Then I rack it to the carboy and let it rest for 2 days at room temp. Then back to the fridge until I can't stand it anymore and decide to keg. Sound ok?

In an ideal world your starter would be a lot bigger, in the 4 L range is likely about ideal as Tony mentioned.

Nothing wrong with pitching the starter slurry after it ferments out.

If you have the means to chill your wort to fermentation temp that would be a lot better than pitching warm, leaving for a day then cooling although that method will work if you cannot chill your wort down more. Also, yeast doesn't like being pitched into colder wort at all, a couple degrees isn't too bad but anymore is a big no-no. In other words, if you do chill your wort to say 12 C, don't warm your starter to 20c to pitch. You're better off pulling straight out of the fridge and pitching it into the warmer wort.

The 2 day warm conditioning period is bang-on for a turbo-boosted lager conditioning.

[Tony L]

[ Also, yeast doesn't like being pitched into colder wort at all, a couple degrees isn't too bad but anymore is a big no-no. In other words, if you do chill your wort to say 12 C, don't warm your starter to 20c to pitch. You're better off pulling straight out of the fridge and pitching it into the warmer wort.

The 2 day warm conditioning period is bang-on for a turbo-boosted lager conditioning.

Exactly. Like I said... pitch climatized yeast into cold wort.. any yeast pitched should be within a few degrees of the wort it is pitched into with cold yeast to warmer wort being the best. Temperature shock of the yeast does strange things to an otherwise great ferment.
As for pitching lager yeast at lager fermenting temps, I liken it to pitching ale yeast that normally ferments at 18c into wort at 28c... not normally done for most ale yeasts. So if a lager yeast ferments at 10c, why pitch it into wort at 20c ?

[NASH]

Sometimes people simply don't have the means to either chill the wort to lager temps in a reasonable amount of time, or build a large enough starter.

If you can't build a large enough starter I recommend pitching warmer until fermentation commences then slowly lowering the temp until you get down into your lagering zone. Excellent lagers can be made this way, I have often done it a lot in breweries because it's hardly feasible sometimes to buy a full wort pitch of yeast. Purchasing yeast slurry from a lab can run into well over $100/L after shipping so it can add up in a hurry when contemplating a one-off.

I brewed this beer: http://www.ratebeer.com/Ratings/Beer/Be ... erID=81538" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with a 2 L slurry, started it up one day @ ~ 20c with a couple hundred L of wort then dumped 1600 L in on top of it the next day, again at 20c, let it get going good overnight and started dropping the temperature a couple degrees or so per hour the next morning, by quitting time that day I had fermentation down to my target lagering temps. As you can see from the reviews, the lager was good. So yeah, it's very doable but it'll always be better to pitch at or below your desired ferment temp. This true of both ale and lager.

[Tony L]

From what I have read on the subject, pitching warm means that you'll get more esters and diacetyl during the reproduction phase.
I know this don't always hold true according to the amount of people who post saying they have made great lagers pitching warm to get a good start
and then cooling down to lager ferment temps.
I do try to pitch cold, seeing as I have the cold space to chill, and I'm only doing 6 gallons at a time.

Other posts suggest that keeping reproduction down to a minimum by pitching optimum yeast reduces the ester and diacetyl risk.

Lots of different opinions and ways to make the same product that sometimes only a decerning pallate will tell the difference.

[hogie]

Lots of great insight there guys. I'll probably have more questions over the next couple of days.

I have a 4L jug so I could make a larger starter. Should I make all 4L at once or should I start with 2L tonight and then add the rest tomorrow?

[hogie]

Actually, I'm gonna go with a 3L starter and make it all right now.

[NASH]

From what I have read on the subject, pitching warm means that you'll get more esters and diacetyl during the reproduction phase.
I know this don't always hold true according to the amount of people who post saying they have made great lagers pitching warm to get a good start
and then cooling down to lager ferment temps.
I do try to pitch cold, seeing as I have the cold space to chill, and I'm only doing 6 gallons at a time.

Other posts suggest that keeping reproduction down to a minimum by pitching optimum yeast reduces the ester and diacetyl risk.

Lots of different opinions and ways to make the same product that sometimes only a decerning pallate will tell the difference.

It's true. It's better to pitch below fermentation temps and allow to free rise to ferment temps whenever you can, science tells us so. Increased levels doesn't mean unacceptable levels though, it just means you are playing with fire.

On a mostly unrelated note, the inaugural batch of Imperial Pale Ale down on Marginal Rd was fermented in two of these....

8238h66_20.jpeg

We controlled fermentation temperature by wheeling them in and out of the walk-in cooler every few hours on a palette jack

[NASH]

Actually, I'm gonna go with a 3L starter and make it all right now.

Sounds like a plan!

[hogie]

So it's been 2 weeks now @6C and my SG has attenuated from 1.050 to 1.040... I know fermentation is slow with lagers but does that seem normal or slow?

I'm using Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils and I see the recommended range on that is actually 10-14C. Since I 'm at 6C, could that be why is so slow?

The sample tasted good though, nice and crisp, had some fizz to it... almost like ginger ale!

I am thinking about moving the carboy to another room in the basement, which is typically around 12-15C. Hopefully the bump in temp will get the yeast going some more.

Any thoughts?

[NASH]

Yeah that's WAY slow and is most likely from the temperature assuming you had a good healthy pitch etc. Did you pitch warm and let it get rolling or?

[hogie]

No i chilled the carboy over night in the keg fridge before I pitched the 3L starter....

[NASH]

No i chilled the carboy over night in the keg fridge before I pitched the 3L starter....

Was the starter at krausen or a slurry? I'm just curious I guess. It's likely fine, you're just making uber-lager Warming it up is a good idea.

[hogie]

The starter was a slurry when I pitched it. I'll let you know how it's looking when I get home this evening.

[mr x]

A good blast of O2 might help next time.

[hogie]

Good to know. Moving it to the 12C room in the basement has got the airlock bubbling away again.