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Astringency Problem

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:17 pm
by robcoombs
I seem to be getting some astringency in my beers, more and more lately. I wouldn't call it tannic, but definitely something near the end of the taste of the beer, near the back of the tongue. Definitely has that puckery, thirst quenching sensation. :drool: Some beers its quite mild, others more pronounced.

Now I've researched and read online for hours. I know not to crush my grain too fine, I have a barley crusher left at factory gap. I measure my mash ph which was 5.41 on my most recent brew. I usually have a mash in, mash out and batch sparge method that I use. Admittedly the mash out addition generally has a temp of about 200-206F, but when I add that addition to the grain bed it never goes above 168F. I always finish my mash and sparge within an hour or so. I have tried doing a simple mash in, drain mash tun and batch sparge thinking it was the high water temp of the mash out addition causing it but this seemed to make it even more pronounced.

I have used essentially the same methods for the last 18 months or so. I've used multiple recipes though I've only ever noticed this problem in my hop forward styles, though that is what I brew most of the time (likely 8-9 batches out of ten). I keep those styles fairly low on speciality malt, base malt, flaked oats, flaked or malted wheat, maybe munich or carapils some times and acid malt for ph adjustment. I've obviously used multiple kegs, carboys, different yeast strains.

I do adjust water chemistry now, which I started about 9 months ago. This is what I adjusted my water profile to for my most recent brew for a NEIPA.
Ca 54, Mg 11, Na 92, Cl 100, SO4 100 I am on well water

Am I missing anything else that could be causing this? I've run out of ideas and things to try. I was planning not to adjust water chemistry at all next time simply because I don't know what else to try. This is not something I've encountered until now, certainly not when I wasn't playing with water chemistry at all.

Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

I'd love to just RDWAHAHB but I just filled two kegs of otherwise tasty NEIPA's and don't have anything else on tap right now.

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:45 pm
by jason.loxton
Hops themselves can be a source of tannins/astringency. Are you doing big late additions?

http://byo.com/body/item/1124-mash-temp ... -mr-wizard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:29 am
by Keith
Able to post an example recipe?

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:16 am
by robcoombs
Recipe: NEPA - Embrace the Haze
Brewer: Rob
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.21 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.21 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 4.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 3.75 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 3.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 51.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 83.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.11 kg Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) 2.9 %
2.59 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 67.8 %
0.60 kg Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) 15.7 %
0.39 kg White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) 10.3 %
0.12 kg Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) 3.1 %

1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
14.00 g Equinox (HBC 366) [13.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min 5.5 IBUs
14.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min 5.3 IBUs
7.00 g Centennial [9.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min 1.8 IBUs
7.00 g Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [10.90 %] - Boil 5 min 2.2 IBUs
28.00 g Equinox (HBC 366) [13.40 %] - Steep 15 mins 13.6 IBUs
28.00 g Equinox (HBC 366) CHILLER addition[13.40 %] 0.0 IBUs
28.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15 mins 13.2 IBUs
28.00 g Simcoe CHILLER addition [13.00 %] - 0.0 IBUs
14.00 g Centennial [9.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15mins 4.6 IBUs
14.00 g Centennial CHILLER addition[9.00 %] 0.0 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [10.90 %] - Steep 15 mins 5.5 IBUs
14.00 g Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) CHILLER addition 0.0 IBUs

1.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318)

28.00 g Equinox (HBC 366) DAY 3 [13.40 %] - Dry Hop - Day 3
28.00 g Simcoe DAY 3 [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Dry Hop - Day 3
14.00 g Centennial DAY 3 [9.00 %] - Dry Hop - Day 3
14.00 g Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [10.90 %] - Dry Hop - Day 3
28.00 g Equinox (HBC 366) [13.40 %] - Dry Hop - Day 7
28.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop - Day 7
14.00 g Centennial [9.00 %] - Dry Hop - Day 7
14.00 g Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [10.90 %] - Dry Hop - Day 7


Total Grain Weight: 3.81 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperatur Step Time
Mash In Add 15.5 l of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 3.37 gal water at 168.0 F

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:32 am
by Keith
Based on what I see here I might be temped to point the finger at the sparge water temp. Even tho it balances out to 168f it would still hit those grains very hot. Next time try sparging with cooler water. Say 165-168F.

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:45 am
by robcoombs
jason.loxton wrote:Hops themselves can be a source of tannins/astringency. Are you doing big late additions?

http://byo.com/body/item/1124-mash-temp ... -mr-wizard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interesting read. Thanks

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:46 am
by robcoombs
Keith wrote:Based on what I see here I might be temped to point the finger at the sparge water temp. Even tho it balances out to 168f it would still hit those grains very hot. Next time try sparging with cooler water. Say 165-168F.
I'll adjust accordingly next time and try this. Thanks

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:07 am
by McGruff
Whew!! That is a lot of hops.

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:44 am
by Keith
McGruff wrote:Whew!! That is a lot of hops.
That's the good amount for an IPA IMO. So juicy. Definitely not overboard.


The man pictured below uses 2 metric shit ton of hops in every keg. :lol:
:NASH:

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:44 am
by jacinthebox
Keith wrote:Based on what I see here I might be temped to point the finger at the sparge water temp. Even tho it balances out to 168f it would still hit those grains very hot. Next time try sparging with cooler water. Say 165-168F.
I agree with this. extremely hot water may pull some tannins from the husks.
I do full volume mashing and gently heat the entire mash to 168f (using my pump to recirc while heating)....TBH ive also done cold sparging for some of my big beers (both big gravity and big volume) and suffered no hit to my eff.

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:25 pm
by amartin
That's a reasonable amounts of hops for an IPA, but this is supposed to be an APA. Anyway, I doubt that would be too much of an issue. Maybe lowering the sparge water temperature a bit would help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Astringency Problem

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:17 pm
by chemistbrewer
Hey robcoombs

If your positive that your pH meter is accurate and your grain temperature isn't above 168°F then it's a very interesting situation. The pH of your sparge water is what I would look at next. Could you comment on what styles of beer you brew without this issue? Given the description of the issue it must be either:

1) Mash pH (doesn't seem to be if pH meter is calibrated and working)
2) Sparge pH (could be this imo)
3) Length of mash + sparging (is this process longer for your IPAs?)
4) The hops you're using (look at the type 90 vs type 45 hops, https://byo.com/hops/item/1124-mash-tem ... -mr-wizard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

I hope this helps!