Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

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Jimmy
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Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by Jimmy » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:58 am

Has anyone tried any of the "alternatives" to turbid mashing? I tried adding flour to the boil on my most recent sour, but was unsure of how much I should add.


From Mlike The Funk (http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Turbid_Mash):
One of the main goals of turbid mashing for mixed culture beer is to yield a starchy wort in order to carry carbohydrates which are unfermentable to Saccharomyces but fermentable to Brettanomyces and lactic acid bacteria into the fermentation. There are other approaches that brewers have taken to come to this same end result of starchy wort without the labor and equipment-intensive turbid mashing process. These alternatives will likely not yield the same exact results as turbid mashing, but depending on the brewer's goals they may be sufficient and/or preferred. Some of these methods, as outlined in the spontaneous fermentation page, include the addition of flour to the boil passing hot mash runnings through flaked grains, adding flaked grains to the mash at the mashout step, soaking a huskless grain such as oats in the boil, pulling mash runnings before full conversion without the prolonged processing of a turbid mash, using maltodextrin in the boil, or even adding 100% wheat pasta
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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by CartoonCod » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:30 pm

Here are some probably unhelpful comments. A few years ago I dabbled in some alternatives. I tried flour, oats, pulling mash before full conversion maybe some others. But my goal was never to test different methods to see which worked better, it was just to get starchy wort and try something different. I almost always pitched a different slurry of bugs which I think affected the flavour more than anything. So I can't tell you which one works better.

I can't remember the quantities of the alternatives I used. It was too long ago, and I had a mishap with my brewing spreadsheets.

Probably the most useful comment I can offer is despite all of my starchy wort adventures, none of the wild beers came out cloudy.

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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by Jimmy » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:56 pm

CartoonCod wrote:Here are some probably unhelpful comments. A few years ago I dabbled in some alternatives. I tried flour, oats, pulling mash before full conversion maybe some others. But my goal was never to test different methods to see which worked better, it was just to get starchy wort and try something different. I almost always pitched a different slurry of bugs which I think affected the flavour more than anything. So I can't tell you which one works better.

I can't remember the quantities of the alternatives I used. It was too long ago, and I had a mishap with my brewing spreadsheets.

Probably the most useful comment I can offer is despite all of my starchy wort adventures, none of the wild beers came out cloudy.
Were you doing it for cloudy wort, or for food for the bugs? From what I've read, bugs prefer the starchy wort, and use it as food. That was my logic for adding it.

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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by CartoonCod » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:13 pm

Yeah I was just using it as food for the bugs too. I guess the upshot to my experiences, is that it didn't hurt my beer so if your not doing a turbid mash then why not.

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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by Jimmy » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:27 pm

Have you ever done an actual turbid mash? If so, did you see any benefit in the final beer?
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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by CartoonCod » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 pm

I did one about two years ago with Brian (Boogey). It's still in the carboy. There is a long turn around on these beers. I'll probably keep doing turbid mashes from now on. It makes for a long brewday, but its not that bad and there might be other stuff like tannins (which help out aged sour beers) getting into the wort as well.

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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by mthibodeau » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:48 am

CartoonCod wrote:I did one about two years ago with Brian (Boogey). It's still in the carboy. There is a long turn around on these beers. I'll probably keep doing turbid mashes from now on. It makes for a long brewday, but its not that bad and there might be other stuff like tannins (which help out aged sour beers) getting into the wort as well.
Still in the primary? Or did you rack to secondary? Also plastic or glass? I've heard plastic can be beneficial because over long enough it let's in a bit of oxygen like a barrel would, but I haven't come across anybody doing a side by side

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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by Jimmy » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:13 pm

The one I recently did, I racked to my Sankey Solera after about 4 weeks in the conical fermenter. The timing was based mostly on fermenter availability, and the fact that it's a Flanders Red. From what I've read, Flanders Red can benefit from being transferred off the yeast cake, whereas a traditional lambic can benefit from staying on the yeast cake.

My plan is to invest in some 1.5" oak bungs, that I can insert into one of the tri clamp ports to allow a small amount of oxygen in. This should be similar to the oak dowel method that's referenced in the Mad Fermentationist book, American Sours.
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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by CartoonCod » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:14 pm

I initially ferment my sour beers in a plastic bucket until the krausen subsides then I transfer to a glass carboy for long term aging. I do this because I want my carboy completely full, about a centimeter under the rubber bung (I try to include quite a bit of the yeast cake). I've had two sour beers where I left quite a bit of headspace in the carboy and even with a rubber bung and airlock (the S-shaped, and topped up every few months due to evaporation) it still got a vinegar flavour due to what I think is oxygen exposure. I had to dump those two batches, it wasn't fun. Oxygen can diffuse through water and plastic and pass through the airlock even it is not bubbling and lots of headspace makes it worse. I've had other sours that I kept topped up and they didn't develop an acetic character. I wouldn't worry about doing things to get extra oxygen on the 5 gallon scale, it will come in even with glass and airlock. This advice is more if you are aging the sour beer for 2-3 years. You probably don't have to worry about oxygen as much if you only age for 1 year or less..

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Re: Turbid Mash vs Alternatives

Post by mthibodeau » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:59 pm

CartoonCod wrote:I initially ferment my sour beers in a plastic bucket until the krausen subsides then I transfer to a glass carboy for long term aging. I do this because I want my carboy completely full, about a centimeter under the rubber bung (I try to include quite a bit of the yeast cake). I've had two sour beers where I left quite a bit of headspace in the carboy and even with a rubber bung and airlock (the S-shaped, and topped up every few months due to evaporation) it still got a vinegar flavour due to what I think is oxygen exposure. I had to dump those two batches, it wasn't fun. Oxygen can diffuse through water and plastic and pass through the airlock even it is not bubbling and lots of headspace makes it worse. I've had other sours that I kept topped up and they didn't develop an acetic character. I wouldn't worry about doing things to get extra oxygen on the 5 gallon scale, it will come in even with glass and airlock. This advice is more if you are aging the sour beer for 2-3 years. You probably don't have to worry about oxygen as much if you only age for 1 year or less..
Thanks, I'll probably transfer to glass at some point then. Just need to find a 5gal carboy in the meantime

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