Water Quality

A spot to talk general homebrew
Post Reply
NBBrewer
Registered User
Registered User
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:44 am
Name: Dean

Water Quality

Post by NBBrewer » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:09 pm

Does anybody have any recommendation for adjusting my water for brewing?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by NBBrewer on Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ackes
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:31 pm
Name: Mike
Location: St. Margaret's Bay

Re: Water Quality

Post by ackes » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:45 pm

I use Bru’N water for my water chemistry.

I just keep it on my google docs and use it from there. Just plug in the numbers from your water report above.

I found this video helpful when trying to figure out how to use it.
http://brulosophy.com/2014/09/29/brewin ... run-water/

There’s a little more trial and error with it - when compared to Beersmith (from what I can tell) I only have beersmith mobile - which doesn’t include the water chemistry business.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kegged: Cranberry Saison (other 1/2 of BR HBC), Oat of Control (OPA), Mango Berliner Weisse, Maple Pecan Brown Ale
Fermenting: Hop Buy.P.A
On deck: House Honey Wheat,
In the hole:: RIS

NBBrewer
Registered User
Registered User
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:44 am
Name: Dean

Re: Water Quality

Post by NBBrewer » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:25 pm

Wow very nice spreadsheet thanks aches. From what I see I should be adding about 5.3 grams of calcium sulphate for a 6 gallon batch to adjust the mash to between 5.2 and 5.5.

I will need to tinker with it some more.

ackes
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:31 pm
Name: Mike
Location: St. Margaret's Bay

Re: Water Quality

Post by ackes » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:45 pm

NBBrewer wrote:Wow very nice spreadsheet thanks aches. From what I see I should be adding about 5.3 grams of calcium sulphate for a 6 gallon batch to adjust the mash to between 5.2 and 5.5.

I will need to tinker with it some more.
No problemo. Enjoy!
I think tinker is the key word with Bru’N’water. Lots of tinkerin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kegged: Cranberry Saison (other 1/2 of BR HBC), Oat of Control (OPA), Mango Berliner Weisse, Maple Pecan Brown Ale
Fermenting: Hop Buy.P.A
On deck: House Honey Wheat,
In the hole:: RIS

NBBrewer
Registered User
Registered User
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:44 am
Name: Dean

Re: Water Quality

Post by NBBrewer » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:17 pm

I am also looking into using acidulated malt to bring my pH down so the enzymes can convert the starches to fermentable sugars.

ackes
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:31 pm
Name: Mike
Location: St. Margaret's Bay

Re: Water Quality

Post by ackes » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:10 pm

NBBrewer wrote:I am also looking into using acidulated malt to bring my pH down so the enzymes can convert the starches to fermentable sugars.
You can use that in Bru’N’water as well. Just plug it in with your grist.
What I normally do is:
plug in my grain bill; then
Pick my type of water that I want to adjust to (I.e.: London profile, pale ale profile, etc).
Adjust with brewing salts. Then check the pH on that page - if it’s not where you want it to be (5.3 - 5.4 ish).
Then add acidulated malt on the page where you entered the grain bill.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kegged: Cranberry Saison (other 1/2 of BR HBC), Oat of Control (OPA), Mango Berliner Weisse, Maple Pecan Brown Ale
Fermenting: Hop Buy.P.A
On deck: House Honey Wheat,
In the hole:: RIS

User avatar
oceanic_brew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:14 pm
Name: Glen O'Keefe

Re: Water Quality

Post by oceanic_brew » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:36 pm

I recommend using lactic acid over trying to rely on calcium chloride to adjust mash ph. Also I read a post recently from the guy who created brunwater spreadsheet, he recommended using lactic acid over acidulated malt mainly for predictability and accuracy. I’ve only used lactic acid so I can’t speak to that from experience. If you see yourself beginning to add too much salts to bring the mash ph down, or trying to use salts to bring a mash ph back up because you’ve added too many salts to match a particular water profile then you need to rethink what you’re doing and why you’re doing it.

The other thing about water additions is that it’s not an adjust on the fly type of situation it should be done based on the best predictable outcome and then adjusted on subsequent batches until you get it right.

My experience(and I would like to hear others) is that you need to be waiting at least 10 - 15 minutes into the mash to take PH readings. This should be done with as little heat loss as possible unless you’ve got a HERMs system going.
To take a ph reading and then try to adjust it with lactic, minerals, or acidulated malt requires a lot of stirring which will cause some heat loss.

What you’ll likely see is a swing in PH readings that aren’t actually representative of the true stable PH of the mash but more importantly by the time you reach that stability you’ve already set the conditions for a significant portion of your enzymatic reaction.

It’s suggested to mix all your salts and lactic in the mash water before the water is heated since when the water is heated it changes the mineral make up of the water in turn screwing with your lactic addition but I’m not sure how much that matters with most base water profiles I’ve seen here.
The other importance of trying to set your mash ph with having everything dissolved into your strike water is that you are getting an even mash ph throughout your whole mash.


There’s something I see posted quite a bit that lists water additions in order of importance I believe it goes like this:
1)Mash PH
2) Deal with chlorine/chloramine
3) Ion concentrations for Flavor contributions

I follow that and it’s been working out.

I am about to read the “Water” book so we’ll see how much of what I just said is bullshit or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
oceanic_brew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:14 pm
Name: Glen O'Keefe

Re: Water Quality

Post by oceanic_brew » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:08 pm

I recommend using lactic acid over trying to rely on calcium chloride to adjust mash ph. Also I read a post recently from the guy who created brunwater spreadsheet, he recommended using lactic acid over acidulated malt mainly for predictability and accuracy. I’ve only used lactic acid so I can’t speak to that from experience. If you see yourself beginning to add too much salts to bring the mash ph down, or trying to use salts to bring a mash ph back up because you’ve added too many salts to match a particular water profile then you need to rethink what you’re doing and why you’re doing it.

The other thing about water additions is that it’s not an adjust on the fly type of situation it should be done based on the best predictable outcome and then adjusted on subsequent batches until you get it right.

My experience(and I would like to hear others) is that you need to be waiting at least 10 - 15 minutes into the mash to take PH readings. This should be done with as little heat loss as possible unless you’ve got a HERMs system going.
To take a ph reading and then try to adjust it with lactic, minerals, or acidulated malt requires a lot of stirring which will cause some heat loss.

What you’ll likely see is a swing in PH readings that aren’t actually representative of the true stable PH of the mash but more importantly by the time you reach that stability you’ve already set the conditions for a significant portion of your enzymatic reaction.

It’s suggested to mix all your salts and lactic in the mash water before the water is heated since when the water is heated it changes the mineral make up of the water in turn screwing with your lactic addition but I’m not sure how much that matters with most base water profiles I’ve seen here.
The other importance of trying to set your mash ph with having everything dissolved into your strike water is that you are getting an even mash ph throughout your whole mash.


There’s something I see posted quite a bit that lists water additions in order of importance I believe it goes like this:
1)Mash PH
2) Deal with chlorine/chloramine
3) Ion concentrations for Flavor contributions

I follow that and it’s been working out.

I am about to read the “Water” book so we’ll see how much of what I just said is bullshit or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
jacinthebox
Award Winner 14
Award Winner 14
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:44 pm
Name: Justin
Location: Hubley
Contact:

Re: Water Quality

Post by jacinthebox » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:11 pm

I only brew with RO water...and only adjust with Calc Chloride, Calc Sulfate & 10% phosphoric acid (I use 88% lactic acid when using Brett).
For RO water 5g of Calc chloride per 5gal of brew water is a good starting place...and with hoppier beers i'll also add Calc sulfate (pay attention to the chloride/sulfate ratio...adjust as you see fit for the style you're brewing, the ratio can be manipulated to achieve particular results).
Then enough acid to reach my 5.3ph target for most of my beers.

I stopped trying to mimic brewing water from around the world...it get's way to complicated, unnecessarily in my opinion.
Brathair Brewing



Brew Hard...Stay Humble

User avatar
oceanic_brew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:14 pm
Name: Glen O'Keefe

Re: Water Quality

Post by oceanic_brew » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:37 pm

Hey jacinthebox are you guys on well water out there? You’re out in Timberlea or tantallon somewhere right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
jacinthebox
Award Winner 14
Award Winner 14
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:44 pm
Name: Justin
Location: Hubley
Contact:

Re: Water Quality

Post by jacinthebox » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:10 pm

Yeah we are in Hubley...on well water...with softener...no good for brewing
Brathair Brewing



Brew Hard...Stay Humble

elreplica
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:36 am
Name: Don
Location: South Shore, NS

Re: Water Quality

Post by elreplica » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:41 am

jacinthebox wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:10 pm
Yeah we are in Hubley...on well water...with softener...no good for brewing
And...that...is exactly my setup sans softener...and your advice is exactly what was given to me and verified after several reads...I'm going to be testing it out soon. Thanks J. for confirming what I was looking for.
At Bat: several Czech Pils
On Deck: Cream Ale
In the Hole: Kolsch
Clean Up: Tall Ships Ale clones
On tap: Propeller Pils, Festa Cream Ale

User avatar
jacinthebox
Award Winner 14
Award Winner 14
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:44 pm
Name: Justin
Location: Hubley
Contact:

Re: Water Quality

Post by jacinthebox » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:14 am

cheers
Brathair Brewing



Brew Hard...Stay Humble

Swine
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:30 am
Name: Ryan Swinamer
Location: Hammonds Plains

Re: Water Quality

Post by Swine » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:33 pm

jacinthebox wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:11 pm
I only brew with RO water...and only adjust with Calc Chloride, Calc Sulfate & 10% phosphoric acid (I use 88% lactic acid when using Brett).
For RO water 5g of Calc chloride per 5gal of brew water is a good starting place...and with hoppier beers i'll also add Calc sulfate (pay attention to the chloride/sulfate ratio...adjust as you see fit for the style you're brewing, the ratio can be manipulated to achieve particular results).
Then enough acid to reach my 5.3ph target for most of my beers.

I stopped trying to mimic brewing water from around the world...it get's way to complicated, unnecessarily in my opinion.
Hey Justin,
Where do you get your RO Water? I was under the impression that it could get expensive. Likely uneducated on my part.
Cheers.

User avatar
jacinthebox
Award Winner 14
Award Winner 14
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:44 pm
Name: Justin
Location: Hubley
Contact:

Re: Water Quality

Post by jacinthebox » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:24 am

Canadian Tire in Bayers Lake has a fill station. 99 cents per vessel (we fill our 30L clear brew buckets)
Brathair Brewing



Brew Hard...Stay Humble

Swine
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:30 am
Name: Ryan Swinamer
Location: Hammonds Plains

Re: Water Quality

Post by Swine » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:55 am

jacinthebox wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:24 am
Canadian Tire in Bayers Lake has a fill station. 99 cents per vessel (we fill our 30L clear brew buckets)
Sweet, thanks!

User avatar
jacinthebox
Award Winner 14
Award Winner 14
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:44 pm
Name: Justin
Location: Hubley
Contact:

Re: Water Quality

Post by jacinthebox » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:28 pm

No worries
Brathair Brewing



Brew Hard...Stay Humble

User avatar
amartin
Award Winner 8
Award Winner 8
Posts: 1477
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 12:49 pm
Location: Hammonds Plains

Re: Water Quality

Post by amartin » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:39 pm

You guys ever just try bypassing the softener for a batch and seeing how it goes? I got sick of hauling city water from my brothers place (for double batches even) so I gave my water a try. It’s been fine, and I’m fairly certain there’s been a batch or two where I actually forgot to bypass the softener. I’m not going back to hauling water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
amartin
Award Winner 8
Award Winner 8
Posts: 1477
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 12:49 pm
Location: Hammonds Plains

Re: Water Quality

Post by amartin » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:39 pm

You guys ever just try bypassing the softener for a batch and seeing how it goes? I got sick of hauling city water from my brothers place (for double batches even) so I gave my water a try. It’s been fine, and I’m fairly certain there’s been a batch or two where I actually forgot to bypass the softener. I’m not going back to hauling water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Swine
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:30 am
Name: Ryan Swinamer
Location: Hammonds Plains

Re: Water Quality

Post by Swine » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:55 pm

amartin wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:39 pm
You guys ever just try bypassing the softener for a batch and seeing how it goes? I got sick of hauling city water from my brothers place (for double batches even) so I gave my water a try. It’s been fine, and I’m fairly certain there’s been a batch or two where I actually forgot to bypass the softener. I’m not going back to hauling water.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
All my brewing up until now has been from water taken before the softener. There's a drain valve on the output of my pressure tank, I have a RV Garden hose connected, so I get un-softened water.
My beer seems decent (I am sure water isn't my biggest issue) but I have always found my beer 'thin'. I make mostly IPA.
I am mostly interested in trying a different approach to see if it makes any difference. If it does, how much of a difference and is it worth it? The answer to the last is likely "no" as I don't enter comps and I am the mass consumer of my beer. Anyone else having it is getting 'free' beer...
I have a lot of iron in my water, but no real dangerous issues like Arsenic, so lucky there.

User avatar
jacinthebox
Award Winner 14
Award Winner 14
Posts: 2822
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:44 pm
Name: Justin
Location: Hubley
Contact:

Re: Water Quality

Post by jacinthebox » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:17 am

I have a tap before the softener as well...but haven't had the water analyzed...
Brathair Brewing



Brew Hard...Stay Humble

User avatar
amartin
Award Winner 8
Award Winner 8
Posts: 1477
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 12:49 pm
Location: Hammonds Plains

Re: Water Quality

Post by amartin » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:12 am

There’s often a bypass on the softener so that water goes to the whole house, so you could fill up in the garage or wherever you brew. I haven’t had mine analyzed before the softener, just after, and it had 200ppm sodium, which the guy said means it probably has 100ppm other minerals, likely chalk and gypsum, among others. I just guess it to be somewhat of a mix and then add other minerals if needed, depending on what I’m making.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Post Reply

Return to “General Homebrew Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests