HSA and Teig

A spot to talk general homebrew
Post Reply
User avatar
Celiacbrew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:08 pm
Name: Mike E.
Location: Dartmouth

HSA and Teig

Post by Celiacbrew » Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:10 pm

Early on in my home brewing career I heard about hot side aeration and how it isn’t something to worry about. I was just relistening to a Master Brewers Association of the America’s podcast episode 139 and maybe there is something to it for home brewers. In it the interviewee said something about teig which is the stuff that looks like grey porridge that comes up to the top of my mashes. It basically makes a cap on top and won’t let wort flow through it. When it forms I have to do cuts with my paddle to get the wort flowing again. Sometimes I have to stir the whole thing up to get most of that stuff to the top and then let the mash settle again and then do some cuts through it. Super annoying. I’ve always assumed it was just part of brewing but hearing that interview has made me reconsider it.

Apparently teig formation is related to a lot of hot side aeration which seems inevitable in home brewing with tiny volume of beer we are working with. But I am now wondering it there might be a way to minimize it enough to stop the formation of that teig.

My plan is to start by under letting a mash to see if that changes anything. And I will try using my paddle to rake the mash to break up dough balls instead of stirring the mash. Anyone have any other ideas that could lower HSA?
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Mike E.

User avatar
GAM
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 5402
Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 2:50 pm
Name: Sandy MacNeil
Location: North End HFX

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by GAM » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:04 pm

Ideas, No.

Problem with this, No.

I stir my mash 3-4 times and it works for me.

Science it up and let us know.

S

User avatar
BBrianBoogie
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:21 pm
Location: Halifax

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by BBrianBoogie » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:08 am

Underletting will make a difference. Dissolved oxygen in your strike water is another area of exploration. If you pre-boil your strike water, then quickly cool to strike temp that will get rid of a good deal of DO. You can also add some ascorbic acid and KMS or PMS while cooling. You don't need much of either, and keep in mind KMS/PMS can lead to sulfur problems with the finished beer. It's hard to give amounts of those, as it's dependent on how tight your system is in regards to DO pickup. Full volume mashes will also limit your exposure to HSA. If you'd like to really go down the rabbit hole, goggle LODO brewing. Good luck :cheers2:

User avatar
Celiacbrew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:08 pm
Name: Mike E.
Location: Dartmouth

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by Celiacbrew » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:18 pm

Thanks Brian and Sandy. I totally didn’t think about full volume mashing having an effect. I will also see what the deal is with the lodo brewing. I already use a little KMS in my hot liquor after carbon filtering so that should not be to hard to optimize.

And I will post up my sciencing Sandy. Probably won’t impact you assuming you are still on BIAB but the site needs more content. Too quiet lately.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Mike E.

User avatar
GAM
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 5402
Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 2:50 pm
Name: Sandy MacNeil
Location: North End HFX

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by GAM » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:34 pm

Grainfather mostly now. That said I have a different take in the gear than most. Not better but mine and I should post a brew day.

User avatar
Celiacbrew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:08 pm
Name: Mike E.
Location: Dartmouth

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by Celiacbrew » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:59 pm

GAM wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:34 pm
Grainfather mostly now. That said I have a different take in the gear than most. Not better but mine and I should post a brew day.
You should. I’d watch/read that. Everyone’s process is different and still everyone has something they can learn from seeing how someone else is doing things.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Mike E.

User avatar
CartoonCod
Award Winner 1
Award Winner 1
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:39 am
Name: Adam Comeau
Location: Halifax

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by CartoonCod » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:48 am

I wonder how practical it is to measure dissolved oxygen in hot wort? If temperature matters, if typical oxygen meters work in wort, if hot temps break them, etc.... Mike if you come across details about measuring O2 in your podcast I'd be keen to listen in. I've got access to two different types of O2 meters at work, but I'd have to be careful not to ruin them in hot wort!

User avatar
Celiacbrew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:08 pm
Name: Mike E.
Location: Dartmouth

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by Celiacbrew » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:04 pm

CartoonCod wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:48 am
I wonder how practical it is to measure dissolved oxygen in hot wort? If temperature matters, if typical oxygen meters work in wort, if hot temps break them, etc.... Mike if you come across details about measuring O2 in your podcast I'd be keen to listen in. I've got access to two different types of O2 meters at work, but I'd have to be careful not to ruin them in hot wort!
The podcast mentioned that teig formation means you have way too much but they didn’t give specific amounts. I assume that since the reactions are happening constantly and using up O2 it would be a moving target for measurement.

Regarding the meter I was looking at the manual of one on GW Kent (ppm) and it has a max environmental temp limit of 50c and 0-30c temperature correction with 25c being the temp for its accuracy rating. So I would assume you would need to cool a sample to use a common DO meter. That said I know I was reading a process optimization manual for production brewers and it mentioned inline measurement so there are probably brewery specific probes that work at hot wort temps.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Mike E.

User avatar
Celiacbrew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:08 pm
Name: Mike E.
Location: Dartmouth

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by Celiacbrew » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:09 pm

Tried the underletting and full volume mash on a 1046 rice lager. Still got teig formation. Next step will be to try again with ascorbic acid in the mash. My next brew is a DIPA so not sure how the dosage is work with that large a volume of malt in there but we shall see. And the final step will be to underlet with co2 before striking in via underlet.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Mike E.

User avatar
Celiacbrew
Verified User
Verified User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:08 pm
Name: Mike E.
Location: Dartmouth

Re: HSA and Teig

Post by Celiacbrew » Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:21 pm

BBrianBoogie wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:08 am
Underletting will make a difference. Dissolved oxygen in your strike water is another area of exploration. If you pre-boil your strike water, then quickly cool to strike temp that will get rid of a good deal of DO. You can also add some ascorbic acid and KMS or PMS while cooling. You don't need much of either, and keep in mind KMS/PMS can lead to sulfur problems with the finished beer. It's hard to give amounts of those, as it's dependent on how tight your system is in regards to DO pickup. Full volume mashes will also limit your exposure to HSA. If you'd like to really go down the rabbit hole, goggle LODO brewing. Good luck :cheers2:

I tried 10ppm ascorbic (taste threshold but likely won’t make it into final beer at that level) and 0.3g of KMS (ie half a tab) today and no teig!!! The wort also was a lighter colour, assuming due to less polyphenol browning because the wort darkened in the transfer bucket. The batch sparge after introduced a ton of oxygen though and teig formed almost immediately. So next step is to cut out the transfer bucket and maybe upgrade my cooler to a larger size to accommodate a full volume mash with a DIPA grain bill. Run off was remarkably faster than normal and my efficiency is up. As well the smell from the wort was different. The melanoidin smell from the Vienna was significantly more pronounced than it should have been in the first runnings. The spent grains smelled normal though so maybe the LODO guys are on to something when they say HSA mutes malt aromas. If this holds up into the final beer I will have to change my recipes to compensate.

As a follow on thought, I hate bock beer from germany because of the sweet melanoidin taste. But in homebrewing I regularly use high percentages of Vienna and Munich and have never had that Bock taste. The first runnings today smelled like a beefed up bock.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Mike E.

Post Reply

Return to “General Homebrew Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 19 guests