220v GFCI breakers

Garak · Post by **Garak** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:20 pm

Anyone know where I might find a cheap 30A 220v GFCI breaker?

I've checked around on ebay for spa breakers and they are usually 40A+ and over $100.

I need one for the heat stick I'm going to build based on the mrx linked to me. I want a 30A breaker as I don't want to have to go any bigger than a #10 cable. I'm going to wire it up to a range plug and unplug my range for the boil. The element I'm going to order is rated for 4700W at 240v which comes in just shy of 20A, actual current might come in well below that as the line voltage is likely much lower than that, but I don't want to waste money on a 20A breaker that might keep tripping.

derek · Post by **derek** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:47 pm

Doesn't it go the other way - if line voltage drops, current rises? I admit I'm routinely surprised by anything beyond standard household electrical circuits...

My experience is that anything but 120V 15A GFIs are expensive. $100 doesn't seem out of line, but I can see wanting to keep the cable size down.

Post by **mr x** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:48 pm

Those little items are expensive.

BBrianBoogie · Post by **BBrianBoogie** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:20 pm

mr x wrote:Those little items are expensive.

Yup. I'll be surprised if you find much of a deal on that. Anyone who has one for sale (likely an electrician/contractor) knows what they're worth. You can try Nedco or Liteco, but it's not gonna be cheap. As far as the cost of bumping up to #8, for the length you need, it's not gonna be that much more really. You could also look for a broken stove and just cut the cord off. If you really wanna simplify things, you could always unhook your range cord from inside, use it (already got a plug on it) and hook it back up when you're done. That would take all of 5 minutes.

Post by **mr x** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:39 pm

I saw somebody on eBay selling 220v gfci cords. They were very nice and under $80. But I can't remember the guy selling them. I didn't bother with the gfci. I just made sure everything was well grounded.

ratchet · Post by **ratchet** » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:17 pm

s' not cheap... but digikey has them for $116

288-1401-ND

Garak · Post by **Garak** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:52 am

BBrainBoogie:
Yea that is the plan, to unplug the stove and use the range plug to power the brew kettle. The 40A breaker feeding the range isn't GFCI and I don't like the idea of inserting an element into wort without it. That said as long as I don't touch the wort while its plugged in(why would I ever touch the hot wort?) and make sure everything is well grounded I should be safe. Those almost sound like they could be famous last words. Yet we use our stoves to boil water every day without GFIC. If everything is well grounded any dangerous fault should trip the breaker.

Derek:
Heating elements are simple resistors and the rated power is only for a given voltage. For example cutting the voltage by 1/2 which decreases the current to 1/2 and the power to 1/4 as Power(P) = current(I) * voltage(V). The only constant is resistance. Current and voltage increase and decrease together. More complex electronics with switching power supplies will adapt to the lower voltage and draw more current to keep the power somewhat constant.

I've seen post on american message boards of people picking up spa breakers, cabinet and all for $35 on clearance. I'll just have to keep an eye out. I might just go with a pair of 25A inline fuses for the time being. I'm tempted just to go with 20A fuses but build everything to handle 25A or more. So the slightest over current burn the circuit open.

moxie · Post by **moxie** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:47 pm

I have a similar project on the go at the moment. I would like to put an element through the side of my kettle. I am not at all confident in my wiring skills, so if any of you guys want to help me wire/seal up my e-kettle, there's a bit of $ in it for you! Believe me, if I end up electrocuting myself to death, the GF will stand me up and kill me again.

Alternatively, I could probably use a heatstick in conjunction with my electric stovetop for a relatively quick boil, so if anyone is proficient in building these things, I'd be interested in buying one. Usually full boils for 5 gallon batches, 7.5 gal boil, max.

Garak · Post by **Garak** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:22 pm

moxie wrote:I have a similar project on the go at the moment. I would like to put an element through the side of my kettle. I am not at all confident in my wiring skills, so if any of you guys want to help me wire/seal up my e-kettle, there's a bit of $ in it for you! Believe me, if I end up electrocuting myself to death, the GF will stand me up and kill me again.

Alternatively, I could probably use a heatstick in conjunction with my electric stovetop for a relatively quick boil, so if anyone is proficient in building these things, I'd be interested in buying one. Usually full boils for 5 gallon batches, 7.5 gal boil, max.

The heatstick I'm building isn't for use with a stove, its more than powerful enough to bring 7gal+ to a boil on its own but it requires a range or dryer outlet, or other 220v outlet. I could build you one if you order parts for both of ours.

This is the design I'm basing it on. It will only be one element rather than two like this project:
http://www.homebrewchatter.com/board/sh ... agenumber=

I might change the design a bit. I'd rather it just hook or clamp on the side of the kettle rather than go right across like that one.

The elements are from a surplus dealer on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Rama-R-2073-Cartridg ... _500wt_922

The electrical side I'm comfortable with, its the plumbing of the stainless that I'm a little unsure of. I've done lots of electrical work for special events, festivals and concerts, high current, wet environments, where everything has to be built to take a beating. My plumbing experience is mostly with PEX and a little copper.

Anyone with stainless plumbing experience want to help out?

BBrianBoogie · Post by **BBrianBoogie** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:30 pm

You might not touch the wort itself, but since water is conductive, the side of the pot, plus anything else it's touching that is conductive could be. I definitely would not recommend skipping the GFI in this case, being a resistive element immersed in water. The insulation/isolation barrier can easily break down in an element, I've seen it lots of times. If that happens in this case, it could go bad in a hurry. 240V is no joke if things go bad quickly, especially with water involved. What a GFI does is senses an imbalance in current between current going out versus current coming back. If there's any leakage to ground, it instantly opens the circuit. A fuse/breaker can take an overcurrent (depending on the interruption rating, it can be wayyyyy over the listed amperage) situation for a certain length of time before it shuts down

What I meant about the range cord was actually unhooking it from the range itself and hooking the leads up to the heat stick temporarily, then back up to your range when you're done. Just more of a "in a pinch" sort of idea, saving you from buying additional cable/male plug.

Post by **mr x** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:32 pm

moxie wrote:Alternatively, I could probably use a heatstick in conjunction with my electric stovetop for a relatively quick boil, so if anyone is proficient in building these things, I'd be interested in buying one. Usually full boils for 5 gallon batches, 7.5 gal boil, max.

I might be able to help with this. Gone for a few days, be in touch later on in the week.

Post by **mr x** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:34 pm

I think I would recommend the GFCI with the portable solution as well. I can help a lot with stainless.

moxie · Post by **moxie** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:39 pm

Garak wrote:
moxie wrote:I have a similar project on the go at the moment. I would like to put an element through the side of my kettle. I am not at all confident in my wiring skills, so if any of you guys want to help me wire/seal up my e-kettle, there's a bit of $ in it for you! Believe me, if I end up electrocuting myself to death, the GF will stand me up and kill me again.

Alternatively, I could probably use a heatstick in conjunction with my electric stovetop for a relatively quick boil, so if anyone is proficient in building these things, I'd be interested in buying one. Usually full boils for 5 gallon batches, 7.5 gal boil, max.
The heatstick I'm building isn't for use with a stove, its more than powerful enough to bring 7gal+ to a boil on its own but it requires a range or dryer outlet, or other 220v outlet. I could build you one if you order parts for both of ours.

This is the design I'm basing it on. It will only be one element rather than two like this project:
http://www.homebrewchatter.com/board/sh ... agenumber=

I might change the design a bit. I'd rather it just hook or clamp on the side of the kettle rather than go right across like that one.

The elements are from a surplus dealer on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Rama-R-2073-Cartridg ... _500wt_922

The electrical side I'm comfortable with, its the plumbing of the stainless that I'm a little unsure of. I've done lots of electrical work for special events, festivals and concerts, high current, wet environments, where everything has to be built to take a beating. My plumbing experience is mostly with PEX and a little copper.

Anyone with stainless plumbing experience want to help out?

What sort of $ are you looking at for your parts list? I was under the impression that all of the big outlets are GFCI protected, clearly I am out of my element here. (

) Is there some sort of in-line protector to be used? Is that what is implied by a GFCI cord?

Garak · Post by **Garak** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:43 pm

Thats why I plan on grounding the pot, immersion chiller, any and all other metal. While the wort should be grounded by the metal pot, a layer of sugars/any thing else in the wort could provide enough resistance to make touching the wort dangerous.

The boiling wort itself is also a scalding danger.

wortly · Post by **wortly** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:23 pm

I was following the plans laid out by http://theelectricbrewery.com/ . This guy is in Ottawa as far as I know and it is probably the sweetest home setup that I have seen yet. My project has been on hold for about 2 months with a pending move. I currently have the elements and some of the misc. stuff, but things are on hold.

The big question that I have is regarding plugs for 240v. Are the dryer, stove, and RV all the same? I think that you can get extension cords for RVs and trailer relatively cheap. Is it necessary to have a temperature control for the elements, or can you just run it full out from the dryer/stove/RV plug in the wall?

Garak · Post by **Garak** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:14 pm

The big question that I have is regarding plugs for 240v. Are the dryer, stove, and RV all the same? I think that you can get extension cords for RVs and trailer relatively cheap. Is it necessary to have a temperature control for the elements, or can you just run it full out from the dryer/stove/RV plug in the wall?

No the plug are all different. RV is a single 120v hot, ground and neutral rated for 30A. A dryer plug has two 120v hots that are 180 degrees out of phase to give you 240V and a ground, newer plugs also have a neutral, it is rated for 30A. A range plug has two hots like the dryer plug for 240V but also always has a neutral and ground, its rated for up to 50A but in most homes its on a 40A breaker.

There are lots of standardized plugs for all kinds of special applications:
http://www.powereastasia.com/useful_info.html

Jmac00 · Post by **Jmac00** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:11 pm

PA has extension cords for welders..i think they got the same plug ends as the dryer/stoves...??? usually go on sale often.

ratchet · Post by **ratchet** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:39 pm

you can get dryer/stove chords at most hardware stores.

I know for a fact that Pierceys Carries them.

wortly · Post by **wortly** » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:48 am

So is it necessary to have a temp control, or can you just run it full out from the wall?

Post by **mr x** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:47 pm

If you can size your system right, you could probably get away without temp control. But that sizing can be a bit of a job....

moxie · Post by **moxie** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:55 pm

I am trying to decide between a heatstick and a permenant element built into the kettle... Thoughts? A stand alone kettle would be ideal... What is involved in putting together a basic controller?

Post by **mr x** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:41 pm

PID controllers are fairly simple. Just need a SSR.

Garak · Post by **Garak** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:19 pm

Soild state relays(SSR) are pretty cheap if you order them from china.

I've been busy working for the past few days which is a good thing as I now have some cash to feed into brewing(and rent). So I'm going to order the parts for my heat stick, parts for a few temperature controllers, SSR, mechanical relays, etc...

Moxie:
I think I'll order enough parts to make two heat sticks. If you like the build I'll sell/trade the second one. If not I'll keep it for my HLT which I don't have yet.

How big in diameter is your boil pot. The elements I'm looking at are 14" long which barely fits in my boil pot.
--
Chris

moxie · Post by **moxie** » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:48 pm

Well, the diameter of my kettle is just shy of 13 inches, so those elements wouldn't work for me unfortunately. It's a tall/narrow profile kettle.

The more I think/learn about it, the more I am worried about the old wiring in my house. I am starting to think that just a small 120v element to be used in conjunction with my electric stove top would be the safest bet. I would like to put together a basic little control panel with a decent PID, but I am not really sure what to look for. Is a 120v element hearty enough to: A) boil about 7 gallons of wort on it's own, OR alternatively, B) Heat up wort in conjunction with stovetop, then used to maintain the boil without the stove once boil is reached? I can see the convenience of a "heatstick" that is not running through your kettle wall, it must be easier to clean a kettle that has a removable element.

What PID are you all using?

Garak · Post by **Garak** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:10 am

I ordered my heating element last evening and it was the last one they had. I'm keeping an eye out for more, hopefully shorter with similar power rating. I'd like to find some 120v 1500watt elements for a HLT or RIMS setup. I'm Still not sure if I'm going HERMS or RIMS in the long run. My short term plan is just to batch sparge and heat water on the stove top in a few smaller pots.

If your house electrical can run your oven, it can power your kettle no problem. You might not want to run both at the same time. My plan is just to unplug the electric range and plug in there. I've done this many times to power 8000 watt lighting dimmers, alot of clubs and venues have dedicated range plugs for band power, but once in a while the range plug in the kitchen is the only source of power.

The redundantly safe way to do this is have a hot tub panel with a GFCI breaker attached to a range plug and go out from that to your heating elements/solid state relays. All electrical should be encased in grounded metal boxes and conduit so there is no path to you before ground. Having everything in plastic would only be ok with GFCI, but for best safety use both GFIC and metal enclosers. That said you have water around your stove, dryer and hot water tank, but none are on GFCI.

I would think you would need at least 3000watts to boil 7 gallons. The most you should run off a 120v wall plug is 1500watts, so two heat sticks on separate circuits might do it. In newer homes each outlet is its own GFCI circuit(each 1/2 of a duplex is separate), by code. Older homes might have one 15A circuit shared between all the outlets in the kitchen with a dedicated one for the fridge. There is also usually an extra circuit on the electric range. Stove burners vary in power, some are 1000watt, some are 1500 watt, they are not nearly as efficient as a submerged element, so even with a 1500watt stove element + 1500watt heatstick you might have trouble getting a good boil going.

Here is a good thread on brewing electrical:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electr ... rs-145019/

I've been searching everywhere and I can't find the thread on how many watts to the gallon for reasonable boil times.

I'm building my own controller based on a Atmega168 mirco-controller. They can be programmed to do anything a PID can do and a lot more at a small fraction of the price.

Edit: Just found a thread where I guy claims to boil 7 gallon with 2000watts in 35 min. So stove top + 1500watt heat stick would do the trick.
--
Chris

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