Lagers and yeast starters

[akr71]

OK, I've got a bunch of questions here... I've only done a couple other lagers and want to do a few before I finish my kegerator (so I can use it as a lager chamber).

1) I've always fermented my lager starters at room temp - is there any reason to ferment them cool?
2) For a 1.056 lager, Mr. Malty's pitching rate calculator says I need a 10 liter starter with 2 smack packs = 20 liters with 1 smack pack (all I have). That's basically a 5 gallon batch @ 1.040. Why not make a low gravity beer and pitch my single pack into it (and use the yeast cake for the 1.056 wort)?
3) Am I stressing the yeast by not gradually stepping up the starter?

I want to do a Marzen or an Dortmunder & then use that yeast cake for a Maibock.

[mr x]

I don't see any reason to do them cold. I don't.

You have the right idea with the MM calculator. That's exactly what I do. Make a low gravity lager with a good starter, and you've got enough yeast for whatever you want after that.

I don't step up my starters, unless I'm going from a tiny culture.

[akr71]

I didn't think the temp would matter (for a starter). Now I gotta come up with a low gravity recipe

[NASH]

I'd be stepping it up as opposed to pitching one smack-pak in 20L of wort even at 1.046. Something doesn't jive with your numbers unless I'm reading it wrong or you're honkin' down on the 'growth factor' pretty hard (which i guess you are after looking). Anyhow I'm not getting quite the same numbers as you. Regardless, by asking yeast for huge growth you get a lot of stuff going on at the microbiological level, a ton of ester production, higher alcohols etc. That's not to say it will make bad beer but perhaps not as good as it could be or maybe a little out of style by comparison. I've drank lots of lagers that had a smack-pak biffed into the full batch with no starter, and a 2-3 day lag that tasted pretty damn good, but I'm sure it could have been better

For 5 gallons of 1.056 wort MM suggests 2 smack-paks in ~ 5.75L starter.

One smack-pak is fine, start it in ~ 1 L, after it gets rocking real good drop it into about another 2.5-3 L, let it come up to high krausen then pitch into your full-size 1.056 wort and watch it go nuts. A 3.5 L starter would work well and besides, there's nothing wrong with a little under-pitch here and there If you bump the gravity up on the 2nd step starter you won't be under-pitching at all. Also, if I were going to pitch a starter that was 10% the size of my batch I'd definitely ferment in the correct temp range.

MM lager starter.jpg

[akr71]

I was cranking the Growth Factor slider to get it down to 1 smack pack, not really understanding/considering the other effects. The only other numbers I changed were the batch size (6 gallons) and Production Date (its been sitting in the fridge for a month, but I haven't checked the actual date - I stuck in early Jan).

OK - I just checked Jan 26/11 - other settings are 6 gallon batch, 1.056, intermittent shaking. If I don't monkey with the growth factor, that gives 3 liters of starter with 4 smack packs.

So, if I do 1l, then step it up to 3l and pitch the whole thing at high krausen, do you think I'll be OK, or should I step up one more time. If I'm pitching the whole thing, I'll ferment at proper temps - normally I cold crash, decant & pitch.

[NASH]

Gotcha. The production date on the calculator is only if you are pitching directly from the smack-pak into the batch, as soon as you pitch it into a starter and it gets going you have a new production date.

So, if I do 1l, then step it up to 3l more and pitch the whole thing at high krausen

That'll do it or I'll give you a... hmmmm..... cup of yeast!

[akr71]

Gotcha. The production date on the calculator is only if you are pitching directly from the smack-pak into the batch, as soon as you pitch it into a starter and it gets going you have a new production date.

So, if I do 1l, then step it up to 3l more and pitch the whole thing at high krausen

That'll do it or I'll give you a... hmmmm..... cup of yeast!

Now, that is a very important piece of information I was not aware of

[mr x]

Also, if I were going to pitch a starter that was 10% the size of my batch I'd definitely ferment in the correct temp range.

Yes, good point. I never worry about the temp because I always decant my starters.

[NASH]

Also, if I were going to pitch a starter that was 10% the size of my batch I'd definitely ferment in the correct temp range.

Yes, good point. I never worry about the temp because I always decant my starters.

Right on

[akr71]

This is all great stuff! Now I'm back to only making 2 lagers - I really didn't want to make 3.

So would you do a Marzen, Dortmunder, Vienna, German Pils - something else? I like the idea of putting a Maibock on the yeast cake (or an even bigger bock).

[NASH]

This is all great stuff! Now I'm back to only making 2 lagers - I really didn't want to make 3.

So would you do a Marzen, Dortmunder, Vienna, German Pils - something else? I like the idea of putting a Maibock on the yeast cake (or an even bigger bock).

I'm sorta partial to Marzen and Pils, but the Pils has to be amped up on hallertau big time

[akr71]

This is all great stuff! Now I'm back to only making 2 lagers - I really didn't want to make 3.

So would you do a Marzen, Dortmunder, Vienna, German Pils - something else? I like the idea of putting a Maibock on the yeast cake (or an even bigger bock).

I'm sorta partial to Marzen and Pils, but the Pils has to be amped up on hallertau big time

Hmm Imperial Hallertau Pilsner? You've peeked my interest. Plus I don't think I have as much Munich malt on hand as first thought (I need to keep it for the Maibock)

[derek]

I'm sorta partial to Marzen and Pils, but the Pils has to be amped up on hallertau big time

With a Pils, Isn't it harder to hide the faults with hops, than with an IPA?

[mr x]

That's what I hear, lmfao...

[NASH]

I'm sorta partial to Marzen and Pils, but the Pils has to be amped up on hallertau big time

With a Pils, Isn't it harder to hide the faults with hops, than with an IPA?

Geez that's a good point. Andy we're going to have to get together and tie into some hefty calculations with microscopes, ph meters and shit, and then get some pure ethanol to drink while we perform a few engineering feats so none of the god damned flaws shine through in this batch!


Sent from the hop-phone.

[akr71]

Ha - good plan!

[mr x]

You know, if you were in the city in the coming month, I'll have a good pitch of the wYeast Rasenmäher Lagerbier yeast for you. Nice stuff so far.

[akr71]

I'm planning on making it to the May meeting. Hopefully I'll have one, if not both of those lagering by then, but I'm still interested. Kyle might be interested for his yeast ranch.