Around The Block With Yeast

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GuingesRock
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Around The Block With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:51 am

I tried a few different yeasts including US-05, US-04 (wasn't keen), T-58 and WB-06 together (liked it for wheat), Conan (peachy but a bit cloudy), Mangrove Jack M44 (lag time too long so threw in some 05), BRY-97 (poor result for me + long lag time), Wyeast 1469 (no complaints, also bit slow to clear).

I’m heading back to US-05. I read, and also HPHunter told me, if you ferment it at low temperatures (low 60s) you get your peach/apricot. It’s odd to get esters at lower temperatures and I don’t understand that.

I think I can get exactly what I need for US and English ales with 05 and varying the fermentation temperature. Short lag time, no starter needed, clears well for me, low diacetyl, and I can get some Conan type esters if I want them by fermenting at lower temperature. And all with no starter and wort oxygenation required.

Anything wrong with this approach? I know it isn’t a novel approach.

It's a bit like Goldilocks, she tried all the beds, chairs and porridge etc. and each time one was "Just right". I think it might be US-05 for me.
Last edited by GuingesRock on Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GAM » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:56 am

GuingesRock wrote:Anything wrong with this approach? I know it isn’t a novel approach.

It's a bit like Goldilocks, she tried all the beds, chairs and porridge etc. and each time one was "Just right". I think it might be US-05 for me.
Nothing wrong. Like so many in life trial and error is a good way to learn. If dipping a dogs tail in to your beer has good results go for it.

Plus the simplicity or dry yeast and net needing to harvest and clean is a bonus.

Sandy

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by jacinthebox » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:27 am

GAM wrote:
GuingesRock wrote:Anything wrong with this approach? I know it isn’t a novel approach.

It's a bit like Goldilocks, she tried all the beds, chairs and porridge etc. and each time one was "Just right". I think it might be US-05 for me.
If dipping a dogs tail in to your beer has good results go for it.

Sandy
thats exactly how we make our "black dog IPA"
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by CorneliusAlphonse » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:33 am

Us05 at low temps ferments very clean, let's hops shine through. I wouldn't say it has any peach character
planning: beer for my cousin's wedding
Fermenting: black ipa
Conditioning:
Kegged: barrel barleywine from 2014 - i think i still have this somewhere

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by jason.loxton » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:40 am

I've definitely detected (and even described as exactly that) the apricot notes with US-05, without knowing that it was a thing you could get (I Googled after and went "ooohhh.". Don't know the precise temp/pitching combo that produced them (this is back when I was not controlling, expect by placing in a particular spot in the house), but it's a real thing.

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by NASH » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:26 pm

Us-05 gets peachy fermenting down in the low to mid 50's F range. And, it can be really quite peachy.

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by CorneliusAlphonse » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:29 pm

I'm outnumbered! I guess I've only fermented it at ~15C (60F) when I didn't experience it - or maybe my hops just outshined the fruity yeast character. That's what I'll go with
planning: beer for my cousin's wedding
Fermenting: black ipa
Conditioning:
Kegged: barrel barleywine from 2014 - i think i still have this somewhere

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by NASH » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:31 pm

Fermenting in the 60's ain't gonna get you there my friend! :lol:

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by CorneliusAlphonse » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:52 pm

if you ferment us05 in the low 50s, should you pitch yeast at lager strength?
planning: beer for my cousin's wedding
Fermenting: black ipa
Conditioning:
Kegged: barrel barleywine from 2014 - i think i still have this somewhere

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:54 pm

Does it take much longer as well?

Is it possible to get peach/apricot from 05 fermenting at high temperatures.
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by NASH » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:21 pm

Yes, yes, and no. :lol:

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by dean2k » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:44 pm

NASH wrote:Yes, yes, and no. :lol:
Nash dropping the hammer! I Love this forum.
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:09 pm

Googling ....

Peach/apricot flavour comes from the aroma compound Gamma-Decalactone. Lactones are cyclic esters of organic acids.
Abstract
The invention provides a process for producing gamma-lactones useful for incorporation in flavorings and fragrances, wherein a micro-organism which is acceptable for making food grade products and which does not metabolize gamma-lactones, is cultured aerobically in a culture medium containing as the substrate a hydroxy fatty acid having an even number 4 of carbon atoms between the carboxyl group and the carbon atom carrying the hydroxy group. The preferred micro-organism is a Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Debaromyces hansenii or Candida boidinii species.
http://www.google.com/patents/US5789212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is a short homebrewers discussion on US-05 and peach/apricot. https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/ ... ic=16006.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/yeast-growth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ester and other flavor component production or synthesis is a complex subject because there are so many variables taking place at the same time. You are right, ester production is related to yeast growth but not in the way you might think. The key element to yeast growth and ester production is acyl Co-A. It is necessary for both yeast growth and ester production. When it is busy with yeast growth, during the early part of the fermentation, it is not available for ester production. Ester production is directly related to biomass production. Everything that increases biomass production (intensive aeration, sufficient amount of unsaturated fatty acids, stirring) decreases ester production. The more biomass that is produced the more Co-enzyme A is used and therefore not available for ester production. Anything that inhibits or slows down yeast growth usually causes an increase in ester production: low nutrient, low O2. It has been noted that a drop in available O2 from 8 ppm down to 3 ppm can cause a four fold increase in esters.

Stirring in normal gravity decreases ester production. Stirring in high gravity increases ester production. CO2 pressure in early fermentation decreases ester production. Taller fermenters produce less esters than short fermenters. High temperature early in fermentation decreases ester production. High temperature later in fermentation increases ester production. Low pitching rate can result in less esters.

There are other flavor components such as higher alcohol that have there own set of variables. Stirring increases production of higher alcohols. CO2 pressure does not effect the production of alcohol. Amino acid levels in the wort effect the production of higher alcohols. Most of the higher alcohol is produced during the growth phase (exponential phase) of the yeast. I am sure that there are many other variables. I am also sure that there are beer makers that have experienced the very opposite with each of the variables.

Pitching rates depend on several factors:

(1) The speed in which you wish the fermentation to take place. Some professional brew master are in more of a hurry than others; desired beer style, shortage of fermenter space. Pitching rates would vary as a means to increase or decrease the total fermentation time. 10 X 10/6th cell population for normal fermentation rates. 20 X 10/6th or more for a quick turn around.

(2) Temperature control. If lack of refrigeration is a problem, the fermentation needs to be spread out over a longer period by pitching with less yeast.

(3) Health of the pitching yeast. If the pitching yeast has not been stored under ideal conditions (4C for less than one week) then larger pitching rate must be done to compensate for the deteriorate of the yeast. Increased pitching rates has its limits in trying to compensate for poor storage conditions.

(1) When all other variables are under control you can use variations in pitching rates to achieve certain flavor profile that are of interest to you.

Conventional wisdom regarding pitching rate can lead to problems. During each fermentation cycle the yeast will increase in size about three times, so if you use all the yeast from the previous batch you will soon be pitching with a huge amount of yeast. Professional brewers usually re-pitch with about 25% of the yeast from the previous batch.

Proper handling of the yeast during storage (4C and <7 days) will minimize any problem with long lag phase. Start with a fresh culture of yeast after about five recycles for bacteria control and or after 10 - 15 cycles for genetic drift purposes.

There are many who will say that they are proud of the fact that they have used the same yeast after over 100 cycles. More power to them. I wish that I could explain their luck. Good practices suggest frequent renewal with a fresh culture is a good policy.
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:19 pm

Based on the Danstar article above, I’ll try this to get the Conan aromas from US-05:

1. US-05 rehydrate and over-pitch
2. Stop putting in olive oil
3. Avoid oxygenating/aerating
4. Low initial fermentation temperature
5. Higher late fermentation temperature
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:10 pm

I've been doing some more reading. I now think I'll pitch 05 at normal rates and maybe 68F and let the yeast reproduce and make some alcohol for esters. Then when I have lots of yeast and alcohol present, after 24 hours maybe, I'll stress it all by taking it down in steps to 55F to get it to produce peach/apricot esters. Then I'll leave it alone and let the temperature come up to finish fermenting and for a diacetyl rest, etc.

As far as I can see peach/apricot is fairly unique. Conan, and if I can get US-05 to do it, I'll be ahead I think. It will keep me amused for a bit any way.

I don't like the idea of simply taking it down to low/mid 50's as it would take three weeks or more to finish and I read reports of it becoming dormant at those temperatures.

Any help/suggestions with this project would be great.
-Mark
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GasMD30 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:04 pm

GuingesRock wrote: 2. Stop putting in olive oil
Can you please elaborate/educate.

Thanks
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:25 pm

GasMD30 wrote:
GuingesRock wrote: 2. Stop putting in olive oil
Can you please elaborate/educate.

Thanks
;) http://www.brewcrazy.com/hull-olive-oil-thesis.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ps. Just skimmed through that again and it says olive oil increases esters :lol: may have to re-think again.

http://www.whitelabs.com/blog/olive-oil ... experiment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by AllanMar » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:38 pm

What's wrong with Conan that you don't like? If it's just cloudiness it seems like it may be easier to attempt to clear then get Conan style flavors from us-05?

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Re:

Post by GuingesRock » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:45 pm

AllanMar wrote:What's wrong with Conan that you don't like? If it's just cloudiness it seems like it may be easier to attempt to clear then get Conan style flavors from us-05?
It's all the fuss of making a starter, which to all intents and purposes, is like making an separate extract batch. Then have to oxygenate. Then takes too long to clear for me ...then if I have to use finings. I like conan, would like to get those flavours more simply, from a dry yeast which is functionally perfect for me, or at least one that I know well. Not sure if it is possible, other than doing it as Greg suggested.
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by CorneliusAlphonse » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:41 pm

If the starter is your main issue, you can use the same yeast cake for several batchces fairly well. Might not suit your strive for accuracy though as it is just winging it on yeast amounts.
planning: beer for my cousin's wedding
Fermenting: black ipa
Conditioning:
Kegged: barrel barleywine from 2014 - i think i still have this somewhere

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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:38 pm

Yes true, also top cropping I suppose.
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:10 am

GuingesRock wrote:I've been doing some more reading. I now think I'll pitch 05 at normal rates and maybe 68F and let the yeast reproduce and make some alcohol for esters. Then when I have lots of yeast and alcohol present, after 24 hours maybe, I'll stress it all by taking it down in steps to 55F to get it to produce peach/apricot esters. Then I'll leave it alone and let the temperature come up to finish fermenting and for a diacetyl rest, etc.

As far as I can see peach/apricot is fairly unique. Conan, and if I can get US-05 to do it, I'll be ahead I think. It will keep me amused for a bit any way.

I don't like the idea of simply taking it down to low/mid 50's as it would take three weeks or more to finish and I read reports of it becoming dormant at those temperatures.

Any help/suggestions with this project would be great.
I'm trying this tonight, 24 hours after pitching. My tap water is 56 so I'll leave it running (trickling) through the fementor cooling coil for 24 hours at 56F. I wonder if that will be long enough to get some peach esters. Then tomorrow evening I'll unhook the cooling hoses and let it warm up.

Any thoughts?
-Mark
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Re: "Around the Block and Back Again" With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:42 pm

GuingesRock wrote:
GuingesRock wrote:I've been doing some more reading. I now think I'll pitch 05 at normal rates and maybe 68F and let the yeast reproduce and make some alcohol for esters. Then when I have lots of yeast and alcohol present, after 24 hours maybe, I'll stress it all by taking it down in steps to 55F to get it to produce peach/apricot esters. Then I'll leave it alone and let the temperature come up to finish fermenting and for a diacetyl rest, etc.

As far as I can see peach/apricot is fairly unique. Conan, and if I can get US-05 to do it, I'll be ahead I think. It will keep me amused for a bit any way.

I don't like the idea of simply taking it down to low/mid 50's as it would take three weeks or more to finish and I read reports of it becoming dormant at those temperatures.

Any help/suggestions with this project would be great.
I'm trying this tonight, 24 hours after pitching. My tap water is 56 so I'll leave it running (trickling) through the fementor cooling coil for 24 hours at 56F. I wonder if that will be long enough to get some peach esters. Then tomorrow evening I'll unhook the cooling hoses and let it warm up.

Any thoughts?
I did this, after 24 hours I took the US-05 ferment down as low as I could with my 56F tap water and I could only get it down to 60F. I held it there for 24 hours and then let it rise to 68F. I kegged it today and there was no peach. Bugger! My quest to get the peachy/apricot of Conan with the simplicity and clarity of US-05 has failed. :wahh:

I'll have to think up a new game. :banana:
-Mark
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Re: Around The Block With Yeast

Post by GuingesRock » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:03 pm

....However!!! For some reason, this might be my best beer yet. Trying it for the first time tonight. As usual, I did too many variables to figure out why it's good, complete new recipe for starters. It's an APA called "Goldilocks"
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Re: Around The Block With Yeast

Post by MitchK » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:08 pm

Does anyone with a fully refrigerated ferm chamber want to give this one a shot? I might in the new year if no one else beats me to it - probably using g-rocks english mild recipe (other than swapping out the conan specified for us-05 and starting the ferment at 55 for 3 days before letting it free rise up to 68)

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