Bottle cleaning - chemistry help

[Celiacbrew]

photo.JPG

I bought a few dozen bottles off of a homebrewer on kijiji. Great deal, he even threw in his plywood beer boxes. Unfortunately I can't get them clean. There was a brown scum around the bottom that I got to dissolve a little but once the organic matter on top came off there is a residue that I can't get to dissolve. The picture is what I am seeing. it looked to me like he washed his bottles with a brush and this little ring is what he missed. Oxyclean for 24 hrs didn't do anything. PBW seems to have made some progress but stalled out. Concentrated starsan didn't seem to work and barkeeps friend didn't seem to do anything much. I'm assuming it is something mineral and I just need the right acid to break it down.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what that scum might be and what else I could try to remove it?

[erslar00]

You might have to result to a bottle brush of some sort get some physical contact on it...

like this. http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shop/bottles ... tle-brush/

you might check the dollar store for something a lot less fancy that might do the job...

let us know how you made out.

[mr x]

Some of these unknown residuals can be a real pita. Mr Whyte gave me a grolsch bottle with a hard white film in it. I tried 11% hot caustic, 65% hot phosphoric acid, and 52% h2o2. Didn't do a freaking thing. Nothing. My next step would have been hydrochloric acid, but it wasn't worth it. It's not stuff I like to use unless I have to at work. Beer was fine, so the film might have been stable.

[Celiacbrew]

Some of these unknown residuals can be a real pita. Mr Whyte gave me a grolsch bottle with a hard white film in it. I tried 11% hot caustic, 65% hot phosphoric acid, and 52% h2o2. Didn't do a freaking thing. Nothing. My next step would have been hydrochloric acid, but it wasn't worth it. It's not stuff I like to use unless I have to at work. Beer was fine, so the film might have been stable.

Hmmm not great news there. Do you remember what order you used those in? I assume it was the order you put them in but figure I should check. Although that might not matter since I used the PBW before the star san so if there were organic soils blocking the acids, the PBW would have gotten them.

HCl is out for me due to lack of ventilation. I wonder if citric acid might work as a substitute.

[mr x]

Yeah, that order

I assume you have access to a lab somewhere. Citric acid can really do a job on scale, at the right strength of course. I can't remember what the best temp is. If it's cheap, try it.

[mr x]

And obviously, be careful. Maybe undiluted ss would work. But that could get expensive if you use a lot of it.

[Celiacbrew]

No lab for me. They sell citric as a food additive in specialty stores or as a concrete etch at hardware stores. Since it comes as a powder I can mix the strength I want. I'm hoping that would be cheaper than buying a bunch of CLR.

[spears104]

You can get citric acid at homebrew stores too.

[Jimmy]

Is it really worth the hassle? I'm not sure how much you paid for them, but you can pick these up for 25 cents each at the recycle depot.

[mr x]

Also, I'm not sure you'll get the right molarity out of citric acid from those sources.

[Celiacbrew]

Also, I'm not sure you'll get the right molarity out of citric acid from those sources.

So citric acid comes as a powder and I figured I would be able to add powder to hot water until she wouldn't take anymore. Looks like that didn't work either. I let it sit for a while and nothing. I am trying a little bit of CLR to see if that works and if it does I will buy a jug or three and give it a try. Not super hopeful. I think I will have to dump most of these bottles.

[mr x]

Yeah, acid molarity is more complex than that iirc. If it's just a light film, as opposed to thick scale, you are probably worrying about nothing.

[Celiacbrew]

Yeah, acid molarity is more complex than that iirc. If it's just a light film, as opposed to thick scale, you are probably worrying about nothing.

Okay so 1mol of citric acid (1/2 pound) probably wasn't enough. But I also crossed CLR off the list. Which made me think maybe I was wrong about it being scale and maybe it was something gooey. Acetone confirms it is not.

I could leave it I guess, but then my beer won't be as pretty as it could be. Would scale beget more scale?

[mr x]

It's hard to say. So long at they get heat to sterilize I'd at least try them once.

[Celiacbrew]

It's hard to say. So long at they get heat to sterilize I'd at least try them once.

I guess the problem for me is that I have Brett on the way and I don't want to resort to heat after each batch. I may take Jimmy's advice and let it go. Derr.

Thanks for all the help,

[Broob]

Yeah, acid molarity is more complex than that iirc. If it's just a light film, as opposed to thick scale, you are probably worrying about nothing.

Molarity, hahaha. I haven't heard that term in a while. Flashback to Avogadro's number or someshit.

[Celiacbrew]

As an update, I tossed the suspect bottles and used the rest to bottle a pale ale. Infection showed up around day ten in the bottle. Tasted like a funky Belgian strain when it started out like an English ale. I don't have a picture of the infected bottles, but attached is one that I spent today trying to clean. This is the residue of the infection after PBW got most of it off. These bad bottles are mixed up with the rest of my bottles so I think I have to throw all of my bottles out.

Anyone ever seen a microorganism that forms a film that can't be dissolved by PBW?

[mr x]

Pbw is fairly mild stuff. Lots of film out there that stands up to much stronger stuff...

[Celiacbrew]

I think I'm done with used bottles. pop bottles and PET 1ls from here on out.

[Keith]

I think I'm done with used bottles. pop bottles and PET 1ls from here on out.

Kegs are the way to go.

[Celiacbrew]

Eventually I will get there. I have too many things to buy between now and then. Pot. Electric element. Temperature controller. Hops.

[Keith]

Eventually I will get there. I have too many things to buy between now and then. Pot. Electric element. Temperature controller. Hops.

Forget all that fancy stuff. Kegs and taps will make your brewing adventures that much more enjoyable.

[chalmers]

Crap, sorry to hear about the problems. I think you bought some 1L flip-tops from me, are those working OK, or are junk? I have some semi-freshly emptied Grolsch bottles a friend traded for some beer that you're welcome to. May have a bit of Grolsch residue in them, but nothing stranger than that.

[Celiacbrew]

The 1l bottles are working great. I might go with all 1l bottles from now on. Way easier to fill. Thank you for the offer of the grolsh bottles, but I think i will go with the cheap PET bottles until I can set up a keg system.