Cidery taste

[GasMD30]

Hey,

So I read the other night that using table sugar in high quantities can contribute a cidery taste. Has anyone had issues with that when they prime their beer?

I've been noticing that my beer has this sour cidery vinegary taste to it that I just can't put my finger on.

Any suggestions?

[GAM]

Quality oe grist and temp.

Sandy

[GuingesRock]

Do you think it might be this

A final common bacteria is Acetobacter. Acetobacter produces acetic acid instead of lactic acid. Acetic acid is the major component in vinegar so it if you have a strong vinegar flavor in your beer it is very likely due to Acetobacter. Interestingly, acetobacter requires both the bacterial infection to occur and also requires oxygen to grow. So in addition to having poor sanitation, you would need to have oxygen present in the beer, either by infecting the wort before fermentation has taken place or by aerating the beer during fermentation or transfer. So if you get a vinegar tasting beer, you need to check both your sanitation procedures and also be careful not to add air to your beer once fermentation has started.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/08/12/so ... ewed-beer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or Acetaldehyde.

Cidery
Cidery flavors can have several causes but are often the result of adding too much cane or corn sugar to a recipe. One component of a cidery flavor is acetaldehyde which has a green-apple character. It is a common fermentation byproduct and different yeasts will produce different levels of it depending on the recipe and temperature. Cidery flavors are encouraged by warmer than normal temperatures and can be decreased by lagering.

If it is caused by aceto bacteria, then there is nothing to be done about it. Keep the fruit flies away from the fermentor next time.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's disappointing. I hope you get it sorted.

[amartin]

I use table sugar to prime all my beer, and as a kettle addition in my Belgian beers and bitters and a few others. I think the idea that sugar causes a cidery taste goes back to the older canned beer kits that were part sugar and told you to add more sugar and had the dry yeast taped under the lid. It was related to poor yeast health, and sugar doesn't have any yeast nutrition in it. With a healthy yeast though, some sugar won't hurt anything.

[GasMD30]

Hmmm, well that's a bummer! I was hoping for an easier fix. I like to think my sanitation is surgical, but I can attest my temperature control is at the mercy of the times. If I notice an improvement in taste with the coming cold weather it may just be it!

[GuingesRock]

Your sanitation probably is surgical. You are trained in that, but a weld in a Chinese or cheaply made keg, or a ball valve, or a plastic tap on a fermentor, can infect the beer. All kinds of traps. Heat/steam/boiling water will deal with most if not all of these traps.

[GasMD30]

I think I may steam wash all of my heat safe equipment in the dishwasher (no detergent) to give it a good sanitization.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

I've had that kind of flavour before and it hasv always been a result of poor yeast health - generally when fermentation temp changes dramatically. Haven't experienced it as a result of sanitation issues.

[Jayme]

Definitely sounds like infection most likely if it's got a vinegar nature. If you write down a summary of your cleaning/sanitation routine, some of us maybe be able to point out possible gaps.

Or if it is a yeast health issue, give an example of your yeast pitching routine for the beer in question.

[GasMD30]

I want to also note that my attempt at a Belgian Wit definitely suffers from this taste. And oddly it seems to be getting darker as it ages (Tannins? Oxidation? Bacteria?)

[GuingesRock]

I want to also note that my attempt at a Belgian Wit definitely suffers from this taste. And oddly it seems to be getting darker as it ages (Tannins? Oxidation? Bacteria?)

My thought is oxidation. You need a Brewnoser to come to your house and brew with you, it could take a long time to sort this out and this would be a way of working it out quickly so you can get on with your brewing and enjoying the results.

I started a thread just over a year ago “critical analysis and development” http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... l+analysis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and people came around, tried my beers and I found it a huge help, helped to set me up. I was so impressed they took the trouble to do that.

Or brew with someone else and discuss method, ideas etc.

Does TonyL or anyone live near you?

[GasMD30]

I'm not too sure but it'd be awesome to see how others do it!

[Jayme]

Oxidation would explain the darkening for the beer over time, but not an acidic taste. As I said in my last post, if you write down what you normally do for sanitation and some details on pitching your yeast in the questionable batch, I'm sure some of us can help. G-rock's suggestion is better, but may be harder to find someone to help you out.

[GasMD30]

Sorry, needed access to a keyboard to do this...

My process is to wash everything with hot water. Everything. I scrub my stainless mashtun and kettle pots with hot water and a non-abrasive soft sponge. All of my materials end up in a Oxi-San (H2O2) soak in the brew kettle while I mash my grains on the stove. All of my water is pre-boiled to try to remove chlorine. I do not have a spigot on my mashtun pot, so I sparge my grains through a mesh strainer into my kettle. This strainer has been sanitized as well (even though the wort WILL be boiled after... clean is clean).

I boil all wort for 90 mins, to avoid the DMSs (I worked in a lab and lemme tell you, once youve smelled concentrated DMSO, you do NOT want it in your beer). Upon completion of my boil, I try to cool my kettle ASAP. I do this in a cold water bath with running cold water. Usually takes 20 minutes (1 gallon).

This is where I think I may screw up...

I then filter the beer into my fermenter through a fine metal mesh coffee filter. It clogs often with the pelletized hops, so I must rinse then resanitize.

Once the cooled wort is transferred, I ferment it with a blow off tube for 2 days, then an airlock for the remainder. I usually slightly overpitch my yeast, as I use dry yeast. Probably 3-4 g of yeast for the gallon of wort. I do not make a starting culture.

It often has that cidery taste before I bottle it so I do not think it is my bottling technique now that I analyze it.



Chew a-way!

[GuingesRock]

Josh, I think you are right about the filter. I got a bad infection once screwing around with a bazooka screen in the boil pot that kept clogging. Moral, if you screw around you'll get infections.

[GasMD30]

Any suggestions for reducing the amount of hop bits in the fermenter? I cannot get a good whirlpool going to save my life

[CorneliusAlphonse]

I dump everything in the fermenter but it is probably more of a an issue with a1 gallon batch

[amartin]

I use a nylon paint straining bag to hold my hops.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

What is your fermentation setup? Do you have any temp control? Has the flavour been an issue only recently I.e. with beer brewed in the summer?

[bluenose]

I use a nylon paint straining bag to hold my hops.

I do this too, jtmwhyte showed me how to tie them closed... duh

[GuingesRock]

Here’s my process.
http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... 607#p63370" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... 607#p66124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don’t use bazooka screens any more. They are not necessary and cause problems. Those posts are a year and a half old. I still ferment in the kettle, for 4 - 7 days (depending on if I am dry hopping or not) then keg to kegs with dip tubes shortened by 1 1/2" for keg conditioning. Leave at room temp for a week then into the keezer.

Here’s a thread where I built my brewing machine:
http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... 50#p103663" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tony L]

Our city water don't use chlorine as such but uses chloramine which don't evaporate with boiling and must be removed with chemicals if you bother to do it ( I do ).
I use campton tablets, 1 to treat aprox. 10 gallons of brewing liquor to remove the chloramine. It is almost instant.

Now having said that, a lot of my brewing buddies don't bother to do anything to remove the chloramine and their beer is almost always excellent as Chalmers can attest to, having had brews made by Pete and Dwayne.

Have you tried letting everything settle and siphoning off the top of the wort possibly using a sanitized strainer bag to catch the hop bits and not use that coffee strainer?

[GasMD30]

Sounds like this strainer bag is the answer to my problem. Reusable? Kent? Rona? Home Dump?

If I don't remove this hop crap, I end up with a lot of trub at the end. I lose head space if I correct for this, and with my small batches, 200mL is important.

I did worry that this acidic cidery taste was a result of left over hops oversaturating the beer as it ferments. Doesn't sound like it.

[amartin]

http://www.kent.ca/kbs/en/product.jsp?s ... logId=2103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Here you go. It says that they also sell in 5 gallon sizes, and if I had to buy one again (and I do now, 10 gallon IPA this weekend), I'd get the 5 gallon. Yes, they're reusable.

[GuingesRock]

I did worry that this acidic cidery taste was a result of left over hops oversaturating the beer as it ferments. Doesn't sound like it.

No, don't think so.