Lagering

[GuingesRock]

I'm starting to get a bit interested in making lagers. I found some interesting links:
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/07/h ... lager.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't have fermentation control that goes cold enough as I use tap water in a chilling coil in the fermentor, but I wonder if I could use my keezer for that, keg fresh chilled wort onto dry lager yeast (using my kegs with shortened dip tubes), and put in the keezer with the safety valve ring up for 1 week, then shut the safety valve off and purge the head space. Then a week or two later carbonate and bottle off the yeast with the Blichmann gun. Needs some work I know, but it's the beginnings of an idea.

How do people make their lagers please?

[RubberToe]

I've been wanting to try the brulosophy method. Soon.

I make several lagers a year and here's what I do. Chill my wort as much as I can (I got down to 10C before) and put into my fermenting fridge around 10C (sometimes a degree or so higher or lower), pitching adequate yeast (lots) and oxygenating. I usually leave them alone for about 4 weeks, bring them up to 20C for a D-rest for a day or 2, then crash down as cold as I can without freezing. A week or so later I'll keg. Being lagers they improve in the keg over the next couple of weeks.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks Rob, I know you have got awards for your lagers. Jimmy found out for me once ...those commercial lagers, Bud etc. are 19 - 21 days grain to glass.

[McGruff]

I just made a Pilsner and it turned out nice. I got my wort down to 61 F with my chiller and put it in the fridge overnight. I pitch my yeast @ 44 F and let it rise to 50 F - 52 F until done. I don't do a d-rest. My latest one took 21 days to finish. I used WLP833 German Bock. The lag time was testing my patience - 70 hrs. Once it got going it was quite active for 12 days.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks, that's helpful.

[RubberToe]

I just made a Pilsner and it turned out nice. I got my wort down to 61 F with my chiller and put it in the fridge overnight. I pitch my yeast @ 44 F and let it rise to 50 F - 52 F until done. I don't do a d-rest. My latest one took 21 days to finish. I used WLP833 German Bock. The lag time was testing my patience - 70 hrs. Once it got going it was quite active for 12 days.

Did you make a starter? That's a long lag.

I had bad lag like that once, using Mangarove Jack's dry Bohemian lager yeast (2 packs in 22L).

[LiverDance]

I usually pitch and let sit overnight until fermentation gets going and then put it in the chamber to get down to 44F

[GuingesRock]

Thanks,

If the idea is to avoid esters and phenolics from yeast, why fuss with the yeast and starters and extra O2 etc. Why not just use dry lager yeast and keep it simple? What benefits do the liquid lager yeasts have over dry lager yeast?

What liquid and dry lager yeasts do people like to use?

[GuingesRock]

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/t ... ast.99395/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I did a Helles with WL 830 lager and I did one with 34/70 dry lager. I hear there both the same strain and both came out equally great! That particular dry yeast isn't much cheaper than liquid yeast so I think either way your good.

I haven't heard anything good about all the other dry lager yeasts but 34/70 is awesome!

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/t ... ast.99395/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1. If you care the Canadian Homebrewer of the Year last year (and likely this year)is generally in the dry camp... Two packs cost about what the DME & Liquid pack would and you don't have to build up a giant starter.

DeutschesBier said: ↑
Hmmm. It is Canada Day, after all. Do you know which dry yeast he prefers?
Click to expand...

34/70 IIRC, it's what I have in my freezer. He claims it is quite versatile, having won a range of categories with it.

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/upl ... W34pdf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

untitled.png

I usually pitch and let sit overnight until fermentation gets going and then put it in the chamber to get down to 44F

Brian, are you using dry or liquid? That's similar to what Fermentis recommends for their dry 34/70 lager yeast ...

rehydration instructions
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 23°C ± 3°C (73°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle
the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the
wort using aeration or by wort addition.

[GuingesRock]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/12/14/pi ... er-styles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/03/25/br ... odcast-56/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/07/h ... -brew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter19-4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/l ... quell.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style02.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any other useful links/advice?

[McGruff]

I made a 2 step starter. 1.75 million cells/ml/degree plato. I use Brewers Friend to make my starters. No sulphur, diacetyl at all. First time for that. I personally have never had good luck with dry lager yeast. Not sure why, but I go with what works.

[LiverDance]

I use both but the same procedure each time.

[RubberToe]

I use both as well. All of them have turned out great. The only problem I have with liquid lager yeast is the huge starters required for a 44L batch, but I guess that's why I got a 5L flask.

[GuingesRock]

I think that's very, very good and well made. Really enjoying it. From my reading I'd say it is to style, and it's nice to taste a saison, and that's my first rye beer also.

Thanks Jeff

IMG_20141221_175441.jpg

Glad to you enjoyed it, especially after you were talking up my supposed brewing knowledge.

Yes, and I threatened to pick your brains. I have a question for you Jeff. I want to ferment lager beer in Pepsi kegs with shortened dip tubes, and I want to do it in a Danby 4.4, I'll hook blow off tubes to the gas posts with ball lock connectors. Will I be happy with the mechanical thermostat on the 4.4, will it go high enough temperature wise. Something like this http://www.homedepot.ca/product/58-cuft ... ler/908463 would be awesome because it has an electronic thermostat that you can set anywhere between 2C and 18C, but it's expensive and has crappy reviews. I seem to remember seeing them at Stillwells with kegs of beer in them hooked to the hand pumps. Any problems you can see with this plan in general? If I wanted to do a diacetyl rest on the 4.4 I could open the door and unplug the fridge. On the expensive fridge I could turn up the temp. After fermentation I'm thinking of proceeding to carb and lager in the same kegs, in the same fridge, bottling with Blichmann gun as/when required. I'm also thinking of hooking picnic taps to the kegs for direct serving when ready.

[GasMD30]

I'm gonna use WYEAST MUNICH LAGER 2308 this week. Thought about the dry 34/70. Maybe next time?

I'll let you know how it goes

[jeffsmith]

I think that's very, very good and well made. Really enjoying it. From my reading I'd say it is to style, and it's nice to taste a saison, and that's my first rye beer also.

Thanks Jeff

IMG_20141221_175441.jpg

Glad to you enjoyed it, especially after you were talking up my supposed brewing knowledge.

Yes, and I threatened to pick your brains. I have a question for you Jeff. I want to ferment lager beer in Pepsi kegs with shortened dip tubes, and I want to do it in a Danby 4.4, I'll hook blow off tubes to the gas posts with ball lock connectors. Will I be happy with the mechanical thermostat on the 4.4, will it go high enough temperature wise. Something like this http://www.homedepot.ca/product/58-cuft ... ler/908463 would be awesome because it has an electronic thermostat that you can set anywhere between 2C and 18C, but it's expensive and has crappy reviews. I seem to remember seeing them at Stillwells with kegs of beer in them hooked to the hand pumps. Any problems you can see with this plan in general? If I wanted to do a diacetyl rest on the 4.4 I could open the door and unplug the fridge. On the expensive fridge I could turn up the temp. After fermentation I'm thinking of proceeding to carb and lager in the same kegs, in the same fridge, bottling with Blichmann gun as/when required. I'm also thinking of hooking picnic taps to the kegs for direct serving when ready.

Not sure you'd get that great of temp control with the mechanical thermostat on the fridge. You'd likely gets higher fermentation temp than you'd like.

[GasMD30]

Let's hope this SMaSH works!!


Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster
1.85 kg Vienna (US) Any 100 %
Hops

Amount Hop Time
10.0 g Saaz (CZ) 60 min
10.0 g Saaz (CZ) 10 min
Yeasts

Name Lab/Product
Munich Lager Wyeast 2308
Extras

Amount Name Time
0.5 each Whirlfloc Tablet

[berley]

Sorry to cut and paste, but it's just so much easier, and I'm at work, so:

http://meekbrewingco.blogspot.ca/2012/0 ... ewing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any issues, let me know; its been a while since I posted that!

[GuingesRock]

Sorry to cut and paste, but it's just so much easier, and I'm at work, so:

http://meekbrewingco.blogspot.ca/2012/0 ... ewing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any issues, let me know; its been a while since I posted that!

Thanks Shawn for posting that. Interesting read.

My whole method of brewing for ales is based on keeping the beer on the yeast and to not be in a hurry to take it off. I'd like to challenge what you said in the quote below and try that with lagers as detailed above (just because I like to be awkward), and I'm going to give it a try. Wish me luck please, as I venture into the unknown. No one will back me up on this, but I'll keep telling myself that I bet those early lagers in those caves were in barrels with yeast in them.

To secondary or not to secondary - If you've done your research on brewing ales, you probably know by now that racking to a secondary fermenter just isn't necessary - unless you're dry-hopping, adding secondary ingredients, or aging the beer. In lagers, however, moving over to secondary is a must-do, simply because the actual "lagering" process (where you drop the temperature of the beer down to near-freezing) takes time - more time than the beer should be sitting on the yeast cake from primary fermentation. Depending on the beer, lagering can take anywhere from several weeks to many months, so it really has to be in secondary for this final step.

[berley]

Experiment away!

I think how much your beer will be affected, if at all, will depend on the type of beer you're brewing, and therefore how long you're lagering it for. If you're brewing a Munich Helles, for example, and only lagering for 4 weeks, I can't imagine there will be a hugely-noticeable difference compared to if you had racked into secondary. But I've never tried it, so I don't know.

A Doppelbock, though, that could be lagered for 8 months or more (which from what I remember is about how long I lagered mine), I'd rather just rack to secondary, and not risk experimenting on a beer that takes so long to brew well, in case the beer IS adversely affected. But that's just me!

[GuingesRock]

Thanks. That's a bit encouraging.

[GuingesRock]

Let's hope this SMaSH works!!


Fermentables

Amount Fermentable Maltster
1.85 kg Vienna (US) Any 100 %
Hops

Amount Hop Time
10.0 g Saaz (CZ) 60 min
10.0 g Saaz (CZ) 10 min
Yeasts

Name Lab/Product
Munich Lager Wyeast 2308
Extras

Amount Name Time
0.5 each Whirlfloc Tablet

Great minds! I'm planning a similar kind of thing but with Pilsner and Saaz. My water here is very close to Pilsen water, so I have to make a pilsner, "Pilsner Myquell" maybe.

[Celiacbrew]

Mark I think there is an established procedure for what you want to do. Old school lagering transferred to the lagering vessel when the beer was still above its terminal gravity so there would be lots of yeast still in suspension kind of like what you want to do. Brewers monitor the pH for a rise that would indicate yeast dying off. from what I have read it shouldn't be an issue though if your lagering time is short and very cold.

Couple of resources to check out would be brewstrong's episode on lagering where John Palmer goes over the principles of lagering or http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... ing_Lagers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this guys is my go to for all things German.

[GuingesRock]

Mark I think there is an established procedure for what you want to do. Old school lagering transferred to the lagering vessel when the beer was still above its terminal gravity so there would be lots of yeast still in suspension kind of like what you want to do. Brewers monitor the pH for a rise that would indicate yeast dying off. from what I have read it shouldn't be an issue though if your lagering time is short and very cold.

Couple of resources to check out would be brewstrong's episode on lagering where John Palmer goes over the principles of lagering or http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... ing_Lagers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this guys is my go to for all things German.

Great! Thanks a lot.

ps. That's a brilliant link.

[GuingesRock]

Having some me (beer) time. Kathleen is drinking "three" (me too) and she's listening to her Indi rock, kids are in bed. That link is so good Mike, thanks for posting it. I just read it again. I'll probably read it another 10 times at least (seriously), it has enough information about lagering that once absorbed, a person would have enough understanding that they could make lager beer in one of a thousand ways. There's one deficit, and only one that I can see. I need to know how they made lager originally in those caves. I don't suppose anyone knows where I could find out about that.