aligal versus c02

[joe_r_harvie]

I just started using aligal rather than C02 and am noticing my beer is taking a long time to carbonate compared to using C02. I have read a bit on the web that this is normal and some suggest switching back to C02. Aligal is much easier to get and the guys at Air Liquide say it is better than C02 so I guess I'd like to stick with it. Is there a psi I should be switching to to carbonate better. I was serving at 40 F at 12 psi using C02 and liked that setting.

[chalmers]

I had to look up what Aligal was. Looks like a proprietary name for "Beer Gas" from Air Liquide, but I can't tell if it's the standard 75/25 N2/CO2.

What's your carbonation technique? You say you are serving using 12 psi, is that the pressure at which you carb as well (and maybe let it sit for a while)? From the 12psi/40F, that is 2.5 volumes, seems reasonable.

Bars use Beer Gas so they can have higher-than-normal pressure to push beer through long draft lines, without the worry that it will be overcarbed. That's because nitrogen is not nearly as soluble in beer as CO2, so it can push the liquid, but won't dissolve in the liquid. And that's why your beer is undercarbed, the CO2 in the mix isn't at 12psi, it's probably around a quarter of that.

Maybe doing natural/bulk fermentation with sugar, or carbing with CO2 and pushing with Aligal is the way to go. Or temporarily turn up the pressure to 30psi, shake the heck out of the keg, let it sit unil you don't hear the gas flowing into the beer anymore, and then reduce it to 12psi for serving. Or turn up the regulator to 20psi and add a restrictor to your line somewhere (the epoxy mixing tips from McMaster-Carr work well) and pour it like that (after sufficient time to carbonate).

Good luck!

[champagneave]

You should still be able get the mixers at NAPA or Cmax a division of napa. When I went to pick them up they were in a bag of five each bagged individually, the clerk handed me the bag of five and said something around two dollars. I think that was supposed to be each, they are 3m mixers IIRC.

When you say " add a restrictor to your line somewhere" I have put them in the dip tube for rootbeer. I have a couple of kegs that came with 1/8 clear tube in the dip tube, has anyone put mixers or smaller line at the tower end of the line? Would you get a pressure drop and bubbles after the restriction wherever placed? A keg of Spreecher sounded too easy.

Jason

[joe_r_harvie]

I had to look up what Aligal was. Looks like a proprietary name for "Beer Gas" from Air Liquide, but I can't tell if it's the standard 75/25 N2/CO2.

What's your carbonation technique? You say you are serving using 12 psi, is that the pressure at which you carb as well (and maybe let it sit for a while)? From the 12psi/40F, that is 2.5 volumes, seems reasonable.

Bars use Beer Gas so they can have higher-than-normal pressure to push beer through long draft lines, without the worry that it will be overcarbed. That's because nitrogen is not nearly as soluble in beer as CO2, so it can push the liquid, but won't dissolve in the liquid. And that's why your beer is undercarbed, the CO2 in the mix isn't at 12psi, it's probably around a quarter of that.

Maybe doing natural/bulk fermentation with sugar, or carbing with CO2 and pushing with Aligal is the way to go. Or temporarily turn up the pressure to 30psi, shake the heck out of the keg, let it sit unil you don't hear the gas flowing into the beer anymore, and then reduce it to 12psi for serving. Or turn up the regulator to 20psi and add a restrictor to your line somewhere (the epoxy mixing tips from McMaster-Carr work well) and pour it like that (after sufficient time to carbonate).

Good luck!

Thanks Chalmers, that sheds some light on my problem. The mix is 70% N2 and 30 C02. Up until now I had success carbonating with C02 at 12 PSI and serving at the same and would like to continue. But my IPA and pale ale have been in the tank on aligal a week and has very little carbonation and I have shook it. The guy at Air Liquide told me the C02 tanks were being replaced by the aligal so I switched to aligal, got the adapter and he told me it would work better.... For now I'll pressure the tanks at 30 PSI like you said and shake them good and hope for the best. I will let you know what Air Liquide say about this.

[chalmers]

You should still be able get the mixers at NAPA or Cmax a division of napa. When I went to pick them up they were in a bag of five each bagged individually, the clerk handed me the bag of five and said something around two dollars. I think that was supposed to be each, they are 3m mixers IIRC.

When you say " add a restrictor to your line somewhere" I have put them in the dip tube for rootbeer. I have a couple of kegs that came with 1/8 clear tube in the dip tube, has anyone put mixers or smaller line at the tower end of the line? Would you get a pressure drop and bubbles after the restriction wherever placed? A keg of Spreecher sounded too easy.

Jason

Exactly what I was thinking, in the diptube. But yes, I'm fairly certain you could put them anywhere, so they could be in the last bit of tubing before your tap. Or do you mean to stick it in the end of the tap when you dispense? Assuming you held it in place and it didn't shoot across the room, I can't see why not.

[chalmers]

Thanks Chalmers, that sheds some light on my problem. The mix is 70% N2 and 30 C02. Up until now I had success carbonating with C02 at 12 PSI and serving at the same and would like to continue. But my IPA and pale ale have been in the tank on aligal a week and has very little carbonation and I have shook it. The guy at Air Liquide told me the C02 tanks were being replaced by the aligal so I switched to aligal, got the adapter and he told me it would work better.... For now I'll pressure the tanks at 30 PSI like you said and shake them good and hope for the best. I will let you know what Air Liquide say about this.

Sure thing! After answering, I found this calculator: http://mcdantim.mobi/easypsig.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It suggests that for 2.5volumes of CO2 at 40F, you'd need to use 75psi of your 30/70 Aligal. Let me suggest against that, as I don't know the shape of your gear. It could probably hold 50psi OK, but let's start at 30psi, shake the crap out of it, and then set it back to 12psi for dispensing.

Unfortunately, I think the Air Liquide guy didn't give you the correct info, and must have been thinking about bars and restaurants when touting its benefits (who only care about dispensing, not carbing as well). If you have the time, maybe doing bulk priming (ie, adding priming sugar at kegging, and waiting a couple of weeks) is the way to go for future batches. Several of us do that.

[joe_r_harvie]

Talked to Air Liquide and they thought I was just pushing carbonated beer when they gave me the aligal. Full tank of C02 is on the way. Thanks again.

[chalmers]

Glad to hear they are making it right. This will be a good resource going forward for folks searching aligal.

[OldSalt]

For Carbing, only use pure CO2. (Nitro beers aside) N2 is only needed if the dispense system has a restriction value that exceeds your desired racking pressure. And while blended gas is a simple solution to overcome this obstacle, a better alternative is a beer pump. And for Nitro beers, blend should usually be 25% CO2. Ales and lagers need a richer mix of CO2. Most common is 60% at 20-26 psi.
I cannot outright call BS on Mixed gas Cylinders, as I haven't completed my study, however here are some facts in regards to CO2 and N2.
CO2, when above a pressure of about 1070 psi, and below a temp of 31c 88f, becomes liquid. At room temp, this pressure is usually closer to 850 or 900 . this should sound familiar, as your tank gauge will read this pressure untill all the liquid CO2 is gone and only compressed CO2 gas remains.
Nitrogens Critical temp is so low that it must be refrigerated to liquify and maintain as a liquid. Therefore, all N2 in a normal steel or aluminum cylinder is in gas form, weather or not CO2 is present.
The "mix" is usually made by filling a cylinder to 30% of volume of liquid CO2 and then chasing it with N2 until the correct ratio is achieved. The resulting pressure is somewhere between 1600 and 2800 psi, depending on Cylinder size.
According to EVERYTHING I have read about the behaviors of of these gasses says that they do not mix in the cylinder until the overall pressure drops below the critical pressure. Only then will CO2 begin to boil off and mix. Then the ratio will swing slowly throughout the remaining life of the Cylinder. So, about 2/3-3/4 of the way through a cylinder, you will, briefly achieve a 30% blend. Mostly, your beer is starved of CO2 and will slowly go flat. Then it will be over carbonated(assuming pressure is above 12-14 psi) until the tank empties.
The only way to ensure accurate blending is to blend in gas form at lower pressures, on demand. It's also a lot cheaper in the long run. Pumps are better, still.