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I'm looking to purchase a conical. I've seen many different options. Either I get the full BIAC which is crazy expensive or cheap out in the short term. I really want something that is temperature controlled, preferably with a thermometer embedded inside. OBK sells SS Brewtech which looks nice. Thoughts ideas?

sleepyjamie wrote:I'm looking to purchase a conical. I've seen many different options. Either I get the full BIAC which is crazy expensive or cheap out in the short term. I really want something that is temperature controlled, preferably with a thermometer embedded inside. OBK sells SS Brewtech which looks nice. Thoughts ideas?

If I was buying another conical, I'd go with the 17 gal SS Brewtech setup for sure.

Not sure size. But I'm looking for a 40 gal. And the below seem to meet all my requirements.
http://www.bru-gear.com/ProFermenter-40 ... _p_23.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am still using my Blichmann 14 gallon conical I bought in 2005. I had to smuggle it up to Canada though as it would of been over twice the price if bought here at the time. If I was buying one for the first time, I would agree with Jeff that the SS Brewtech is the one to go with.

How are people controlling temps in conical fermenters?

jtmwhyte wrote:How are people controlling temps in conical fermenters?

I'm using a glycol chiller but municipal water would work too.

sleepyjamie wrote:I'm looking to purchase a conical. I've seen many different options. Either I get the full BIAC which is crazy expensive or cheap out in the short term. I really want something that is temperature controlled, preferably with a thermometer embedded inside. OBK sells SS Brewtech which looks nice. Thoughts ideas?

If you're simply looking for a conical with temp control, there are lots of options.

I'd think ability to pressurize and temp control would be my 2 most important features.

I just used our old fridge and dismantled the inside part of the door, took out the shelves and added a wooden platform to put my conical on. A cheap STC 1000 and that was it. I also use a thermowell with a double hole bung.

I wouldn't use a conical for many reasons. The shape of the fermentor has an impact on yeast function and the flavour of the beer. Conicals have the biggest impact. The pressure from the height of them, with the compact cone at the bottom, compacts the yeast and reduces its exposure to the beer. It's been claimed that 90% of a beer's flavour comes from the yeast. For these reasons open fermentation in large shallow vessels is favored in the UK with real ale. Conicals complicate things with no benefit except maybe for facilitating yeast harvesting, but if you are going to do that, top cropping is far preferable, again as is done in the UK with real ale. If I was getting into this again, with an all-in-one brewing/fermenting vessel (that's what I use) I'd get a double walled pot from the BIAC people.

There are good arguments against what I say there. The shape of the fermentor, and the impact that has on beer, is an interesting study though. Worth looking into.

My conical has simplified plenty for me with no negative effects on my beer. Cleanup and racking are a breeze. The ability to do closed transfers under pressure is also a huge benefit AFAIC.

GuingesRock wrote:I wouldn't use a conical for many reasons. The shape of the fermentor has an impact on yeast function and the flavour of the beer. Conicals have the biggest impact. The pressure from the height of them, with the compact cone at the bottom, compacts the yeast and reduces its exposure to the beer. It's been claimed that 90% of a beer's flavour comes from the yeast. For these reasons open fermentation in large shallow vessels is favored in the UK with real ale. Conicals complicate things with no benefit except maybe for facilitating yeast harvesting, but if you are going to do that, top cropping is far preferable, again as is done in the UK with real ale. If I was getting into this again, with an all-in-one brewing/fermenting vessel (that's what I use) I'd get a double walled pot from the BIAC people.

There are good arguments against what I say there. The shape of the fermentor, and the impact that has on beer, is an interesting study though. Worth looking into.

I had thought that the pressure from the height mainly came into play in the very large industrial size conicals, and that basically on a homebrew scale (even a Keith sized homebrew scale) the effect was negligible.

mthibodeau wrote:

GuingesRock wrote:I wouldn't use a conical for many reasons. The shape of the fermentor has an impact on yeast function and the flavour of the beer. Conicals have the biggest impact. The pressure from the height of them, with the compact cone at the bottom, compacts the yeast and reduces its exposure to the beer. It's been claimed that 90% of a beer's flavour comes from the yeast. For these reasons open fermentation in large shallow vessels is favored in the UK with real ale. Conicals complicate things with no benefit except maybe for facilitating yeast harvesting, but if you are going to do that, top cropping is far preferable, again as is done in the UK with real ale. If I was getting into this again, with an all-in-one brewing/fermenting vessel (that's what I use) I'd get a double walled pot from the BIAC people.

There are good arguments against what I say there. The shape of the fermentor, and the impact that has on beer, is an interesting study though. Worth looking into.

I had thought that the pressure from the height mainly came into play in the very large industrial size conicals, and that basically on a homebrew scale (even a Keith sized homebrew scale) the effect was negligible.

Yeah, that's probably right.

jeffsmith wrote:My conical has simplified plenty for me with no negative effects on my beer. Cleanup and racking are a breeze. The ability to do closed transfers under pressure is also a huge benefit AFAIC.

I'm with you on that one. Love having the conical.

GuingesRock wrote: Yeah, that's probably right.

I just wish I could remember where I had read it. The real ale thing is interesting though. Do you have a link handy? I'd like to read up a bit more on the real ale movement, but dont know where to start

mthibodeau wrote:

GuingesRock wrote: Yeah, that's probably right.

I just wish I could remember where I had read it. The real ale thing is interesting though. Do you have a link handy? I'd like to read up a bit more on the real ale movement, but dont know where to start

Just in case you get bored some time there's a long thread here: http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... g+real+ale" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The videos in the first post are very enjoyable with lots of insight into real ale.

GuingesRock wrote:I wouldn't use a conical for many reasons. The shape of the fermentor has an impact on yeast function and the flavour of the beer. Conicals have the biggest impact. The pressure from the height of them, with the compact cone at the bottom, compacts the yeast and reduces its exposure to the beer. It's been claimed that 90% of a beer's flavour comes from the yeast. For these reasons open fermentation in large shallow vessels is favored in the UK with real ale. Conicals complicate things with no benefit except maybe for facilitating yeast harvesting, but if you are going to do that, top cropping is far preferable, again as is done in the UK with real ale. If I was getting into this again, with an all-in-one brewing/fermenting vessel (that's what I use) I'd get a double walled pot from the BIAC people.

There are good arguments against what I say there. The shape of the fermentor, and the impact that has on beer, is an interesting study though. Worth looking into.

Was just thinking about this, and I'm pretty sure on a homebrew scale, you probably have MORE yeast in contact with the wort in a conical vs bucket/pot. The yeast tends to "stick" to the sides of the cone to form a thin layer of sludge. Because of this, essentially the whole cone acts as the "bottom" of the fermenter, increasing the total surface area of yeast.

...but does this really matter? I don't think so.

Jimmy wrote:

GuingesRock wrote:I wouldn't use a conical for many reasons. The shape of the fermentor has an impact on yeast function and the flavour of the beer. Conicals have the biggest impact. The pressure from the height of them, with the compact cone at the bottom, compacts the yeast and reduces its exposure to the beer. It's been claimed that 90% of a beer's flavour comes from the yeast. For these reasons open fermentation in large shallow vessels is favored in the UK with real ale. Conicals complicate things with no benefit except maybe for facilitating yeast harvesting, but if you are going to do that, top cropping is far preferable, again as is done in the UK with real ale. If I was getting into this again, with an all-in-one brewing/fermenting vessel (that's what I use) I'd get a double walled pot from the BIAC people.

There are good arguments against what I say there. The shape of the fermentor, and the impact that has on beer, is an interesting study though. Worth looking into.

Was just thinking about this, and I'm pretty sure on a homebrew scale, you probably have MORE yeast in contact with the wort in a conical vs bucket/pot. The yeast tends to "stick" to the sides of the cone to form a thin layer of sludge. Because of this, essentially the whole cone acts as the "bottom" of the fermenter, increasing the total surface area of yeast.

...but does this really matter? I don't think so.

Interesting. Now I want one

Do people often use conicals to get that stuff out of the beer? If so they may be misguided. I was thinking of the fast ferment promo material that claims you can get rid of those nasty dead yeast cells. Something I don't agree with much.

GuingesRock wrote:

Jimmy wrote: Was just thinking about this, and I'm pretty sure on a homebrew scale, you probably have MORE yeast in contact with the wort in a conical vs bucket/pot. The yeast tends to "stick" to the sides of the cone to form a thin layer of sludge. Because of this, essentially the whole cone acts as the "bottom" of the fermenter, increasing the total surface area of yeast.

...but does this really matter? I don't think so.

Interesting. Now I want one

Do people often use conicals to get that stuff out of the beer? If so they may be misguided. I was thinking of the fast ferment promo material that claims you can get rid of those nasty dead yeast cells. Something I don't agree with much.

You can still dump a large portion of the yeast - it's just that there tends to be a layer on the cone walls as well. If you dump, close valve and wait a while, more yeast will slide down into the bottom of the cone. You can repeat this until most of the yeast is gone.

I typically do one dump to eliminate the majority of the yeast, and I'm happy with that.

Yeah I read that conical a on a home brew scale don't suffer from the same issues that big companies do. I believe it was in the yeast book that I read it.

In the Chris White / Jamil yeast book they do list several advantages of fermenting in a conical vessel :

• They require less floor space, which is important when you pay rent by the square foot.
• You can use clean-in-place systems (CIP), which are lot easier than humans with scrub brushes.
• Cylindroconical fermentors offer good hygiene, since they are sealed from the environment.
• The conical bottom and vertical nature take advantage of fluid dynamics to ensure good mixing and rapid fermentation.
• To collect yeast, just wait, and then open a valve on the bottom.
• They are usually jacketed, so controlling temperature is just a button away.


They go on to elaborate on the fluid dynamics:
“The most interesting aspect of these fermentors is their geometry. The more vertical the fermentor, the faster the fermentation. The fluid dynamics of the cone create CO2 bubble movement from the bottom of the cone up through the center of the tank. The taller the tank, the larger the bubble formed as it reaches for the surface. The movement of CO2 helps carry the beer to the top, where it migrates downward again along the sides of the fermentor. The position of the cooling jackets can even enhance this effect and can affect the fermentation rate.”


The quote that pops up quite frequently on yeast health in the cone of a conical i think is often taken out of context, as Jamie said, it doesn't apply to homebrew scale setups.

“In most commercial settings, it is important to collect yeast as quickly as possible. Once fermentation is complete, yeast begin the process of using up their reserves and breaking down. Environment and the health of the yeast play a big role in how fast the depletion of reserves and breakdown of the cells can occur. With large cylindroconical fermentors, where the yeast is packed into the cone, the breakdown can be very quick. The best time to collect yeast from the bottom of the tank is one to two days after initiating chilling. Under these conditions, waiting just 24 hours longer can drop yeast viability by as much as 50 percent. This is in direct contrast to small, homebrew-sized fermentors. With healthy yeast spread out across the broad bottom of a bucket or carboy in an average-strength beer, the yeast viability declines at a slower rate. Regardless of that fact, it is always best to harvest the yeast at the earliest opportunity that still respects the needs of the beer”

Note: All quotes were pulled from Yeast, the practical Guide to Beer Fermentation by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff

The fluid dynamics of fermentation in a conical vessel is pretty well studied and there are lots of studies that are over my head that discuss these in depth. I decided to start switching out to conicals for these reasons though.

mcgster wrote:The fluid dynamics of fermentation in a conical vessel is pretty well studied and there are lots of studies that are over my head that discuss these in depth. I decided to start switching out to conicals for these reasons though.

I don't believe that would be over your head. Maybe it is a case of BS baffles brains?

Good post, very detailed and informative.

Here's stuff happening on the other side of the pond at St Austell Brewery when I was there. Large horizontal real ale fermenters, and the yeast is top cropped from them.
Also of interest, I was reading at the weekend that if you lager in a corny keg (as I do) the beer can take a longer time to clear because of the height the yeast has to settle.

Most of the fermentation/clean up is done by yeast in suspension. Their surface area dwarfs that of the yeast on the bottom of the broadest fermentors. If I had to guess why English Brewers use flat bottom and sometimes square fermentors is so that the yeast doesn't clean the beer up too much and remove all the diacetyl (some of the best English beers have diacetyl well above the taste threshold). Another possibility is that some of the highly flocculant strains are pressure sensitive and they will drop out too soon with any pressure on them. So it is possible that the conicals are better for most beer but one small subset of brewers need to use them because of their strains/styles. That conicals are faster,more efficient and produce a cleaner beer really isn't disputable.

I wouldn't call English brewers a small subset. Fermenters with lids (either open or snapped on with an airlock) have the advantage that it's easy to top crop yeast from them. Brewers and home brewers who top crop can probably safely be called a small subset.