Full Volume Mash?

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GuingesRock
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Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:12 am

Her’s a Brew Your Own Magazine article by John Palmer about this: http://byo.com/stories/item/1375-skip-the-sparge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At the moment, I am doing a 12 Gal BIAB mash with a 4 gallon mash out/sparge.

I’ve ordered a bigger pot (20 gal with a false bottom) and I’m going to start doing full volume mashes.

According to this article, full volume mashing has many advantages. I’m particularly seduced by the simplicity and the stable mash chemistry, and the advantages of that.

In that article Palmer says that you get a slightly reduced efficiency, but you may find the advantages outweigh the costs of using a little extra grain.

The BIAB people would vehemently disagree that full volume mashing (which is what they do in pure BIAB) reduces efficiency.

…We’ll see.

For me, I think the advantages will outweigh the cost of using some extra grain …if that should become necessary.

Any comments, tips, advice?
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by RubberToe » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:34 am

GuingesRock wrote:The BIAB people would vehemently disagree that full volume mashing (which is what they do in pure BIAB) reduces efficiency.
I agree with you there.

When I do a 5 gallon or lower gravity 10 gallon batch I do full volume mashes, no sparge, no mash out. I get 80% or more efficiency in those cases.

When I do a higher gravity 10 gallon batch I must hold back 4 - 6 litres of water and get reduced efficiency (73 - 77%). I don't sparge then either, I just top up before the boil.
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by LeafMan66_67 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:51 am

I only do 5g batches, so full volume mash, and mash efficiency into kettle is anywhere from 82% to 85%.
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:34 am

Thanks guys. That's positive.

What size pot do you have Rob? Do you have an electric heating coil in your mash pot? if so is it underneath a false bottom? Are you able to do step mashes with your setup if you wanted too? Sorry, so many questions.

I’m getting one of these to heat the mash water to temp. It has a thermostat on it, so I can set to strike temperature and walk away. Wednesday is my afternoon off and when I often brew, so if I put it on in the morning it would be ready to mash in at lunch time when I get home.

I’m also thinking I would use the stick as an auxiliary heater for the boil pot which is heated on the stove, but I’m concerned ...would it scorch the wort if I use it in the boil pot as well? Should I just stick to using it for heating the mash water?
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by RubberToe » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:15 pm

My current pot is about 68 litres. No false bottom, and I don't recirculate or have the element on at all while mashing.

My old pot was a keggle and I made a false bottom to go over my element. I tried keeping the element on, recirculating while mashing, and doing the same but with step mashing, but it I was never happy with the results. With a fine bag and fine grain crush I couldn't get an acceptable rate of recirculation. Sometimes it would recirculate faster than the bag would drain and there would be cavitation under the false bottom / over / at the element (air pocket). This caused the false bottom to bend and give out under the weight of the grain bag & mash.

Now I just to a single infusion with the element off. Last weekend I did however do a double decoction, and a single infusion, for my Garrison Hefeweizen. It was a lot of work and a long brew day. You know the story!

I seriously doubt that stick would scorch the wort.

:cheers:

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:21 pm

Awesome reply. Just the info I was looking for. Thanks.

:cheers2:
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:22 am

RubberToe wrote:My current pot is about 68 litres. No false bottom, and I don't recirculate or have the element on at all while mashing.

My old pot was a keggle and I made a false bottom to go over my element. I tried keeping the element on, recirculating while mashing, and doing the same but with step mashing, but it I was never happy with the results. With a fine bag and fine grain crush I couldn't get an acceptable rate of recirculation. Sometimes it would recirculate faster than the bag would drain and there would be cavitation under the false bottom / over / at the element (air pocket). This caused the false bottom to bend and give out under the weight of the grain bag & mash.

Now I just to a single infusion with the element off. Last weekend I did however do a double decoction, and a single infusion, for my Garrison Hefeweizen. It was a lot of work and a long brew day. You know the story!

I seriously doubt that stick would scorch the wort.

:cheers:

-Rob
Rob, I was reading the Blichmann pot instruction pdf, and they suggested, as an alternative to using a pump, running off wort into a saucepan intermittently while stepping up the temperature of the mash, and tipping it into the top of the mash pot.

I wondered if that would work better than a pump with your false bottom, if ever you have to make another Weizen? You probably knew about that already. :(
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by RubberToe » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:38 am

You mean running it off into another pot, heating it, and introducing it back into the mash?

I'd be woried about breaking down too many of the enzymes.

Also, that's almost like a decoction but without the grain. When I pulled my first large decoction I had to bring that through the different rests as well including protien and sacc, then boil it for the decoction.
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:49 am

RubberToe wrote:You mean running it off into another pot, heating it, and introducing it back into the mash?

I'd be woried about breaking down too many of the enzymes.

Also, that's almost like a decoction but without the grain. When I pulled my first large decoction I had to bring that through the different rests as well including protien and sacc, then boil it for the decoction.

No sorry, I wasn't clear. They suggested running it off as the main pot was being heated to prevent heat build up under the false bottom, and dump that straight onto the top of the mash.
Also included in the chart is the max recommended flow rates for RIMS systems in the cart. Of course,
each RIMS system and crush will limit the flow rate, so you will likely need to experiment with your
system.

Caution: When doing step mashes (heating the wort with the false bottom in place) it is imperative to
circulate the wort while you are heating. The false bottom impedes the natural convective transfer of
heat to the mash above the false bottom and traps the majority of it below the false bottom. Failure to
do so may result in scorching of the wort/grain and possible permanent heat damage to the pot. This is
NOT a warrantable failure. To circulate the wort simply drain the wort into a sauce pan while you are
heating and pour it onto the top of the mash while gently stirring. Or if you have a pump, you can
simply pump from the kettle drain valve onto the top of the mash while gently stirring the mash. But do
take care to pump at a moderate rate so you don’t stick your mash. You will find that the mash temp
may overshoot or undershoot a bit after the heat is removed, but after a bit of experience you will be
able to predict when to stop the addition of heat.
From page #10 of the attached.ⴭ
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by RubberToe » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:13 pm

Busy as work here (can't chack that doc) but I think I know what you're saying.

Another important factor here is temp probe placement.

Let's say for instnace the bag drains just fine to allow for decent recirculation, it is above a false bottom, the element below it. The wort output is on the bottom of the vesel.

If the temp probe is attached to the output via a T fitting AND the wort is flowing acceptably, it will be much like a RIMS setup. Pump that back into the top of the mash. The wort coming back in will be at the set temp and will gradually raise the temp of the grain mass.

If the temp probe is in the mash then the element will be on too much and the temps will be out of wack.

If the temp probe is under the false bottom it will also be off as the wort won't be passing by it on the way from the heading element to the output.

I'm not sure if there's an acceptable way to have two temp probes and a switch to go from one to the other but I think that would be cool. You could even have that switch condotional on wheather or not the pump is running.
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:49 pm

The false bottom for my new 20gal (10 gal batch) full volume mash pot came today, and the heat stick with the thermostat in the same box. Of course the heat stick came without the ground fault protector that it was supposed to have, I think they sent me an older model, so I had to wire in a new ground fault socket for it. Those online home brew supply people are drunk half the time I think X)

I did a trial run with water and it took 1 hour exactly with the hot plate and the heat stick running together to take 16.45 gal of strike water from 45F to 155 F. The heat stick cut the time to reach strike temp exactly in half.

On those ceramic hobs you are not supposed to use a pot that is that much bigger than the ring, it voids the warranty, but I think I'm ok, maybe, because I'm only going up to 155F. Nothing got broke on my trial run any way. My boil pot is narrower.

I’m ready to have another go at the Garrison Weizen on Wednesday.

Do you like the 20A socket I wired in X?

I got the pot from NG Coldbrook. I love the staff there. Ed is awesome, Joe too, and their part time latest team member Kirsten is a Brewnoser. :rockin: She helped me check out the pot and make sure it was up to snuff.
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by mr x » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:04 pm

:thumbup:
At Alexander Keith's we follow the recipes first developed by the great brewmaster to the absolute letter. :wtf:

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by redoubt » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:31 pm

GuingesRock wrote:My boil pot is narrower.
Does this mean you'll be using your first pot for the boil, and this new one for mashing?

-Keely.

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by LeafMan66_67 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:32 pm

Nice!
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by RubberToe » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:39 pm

Awesome!
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by gm- » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:00 pm

Nice bling!

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:02 pm

redoubt wrote:
GuingesRock wrote:My boil pot is narrower.
Does this mean you'll be using your first pot for the boil, and this new one for mashing?

-Keely.
Yes :)

The old pot has the built in cooling coil that seconds as a fermentation control device, since I ferment in the kettle. My new plan is to do a primary ferment in the kettle for a week with the latter three days being occupied by dry hopping. Then move to kegs for keg conditioning for 7 – 10 days at room temp. If I then hook up to C02 at 3 - 4psi at cellar temperature, I have real ale conditions without the real ale label, BUT I can use the “keg conditioned” label.

This is a new and wonderful mash pot and I've fallen in love with it, but it's ok to fall in love with a pot, people start going crazy at this time of year after 6 months of cabin fever.
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by redoubt » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:08 pm

Neat! Looking forward to seeing your system in action sometime soon. Congrats on the new sexy pot/midwinter crisis. ;)

-Keely.

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GAM » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:40 am

When is the inaugural brew with the new system?

Sandy

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:46 am

Sandy, Tomorrow 12.30 pm start.
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by Keith » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:08 am

Nice pot! What do you mean by the old pot has a built in cooling coil? Able to post a pic?
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by Jimmy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:15 am

Keith wrote:Nice pot! What do you mean by the old pot has a built in cooling coil? Able to post a pic?

Image

http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... 970#p70970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by Keith » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:48 am

I like it. :cheers2:
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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by redoubt » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Good luck today with your fancy new mash pot's virgin brew, Mark!!! :rockin:

-Kirsten

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Re: Full Volume Mash?

Post by GuingesRock » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:34 pm

Thanks Kirsten, So far it's not going too well. I just finished sending an email to Ed about the virgin pot. I'm sure he will deal with Blichmann right away and get it sorted out. The incident set my schedule back by an hour, and my pride back by 50% :) but I'm bouncing back now with sufficient determination and optimism.
Dear Ed,

As discussed, the 20 Gal Blichmann pot I bought from you at the weekend has a quality control issue.

The collar for the SS internal dip tube had a steel screw in it which over a period of 2 days rusted and filled my brewing water with rust when I stirred it, such that it turned yellow.

The rust tracked down through the water and settled on the false bottom which now has a rust stain on it.

I had to dump the water remove the collar and start again. The collar is somewhat necessary to stop the false bottom rotating and moving the dip tube away from the bottom of the pot, potentially it could even rotate so that the bottom of the dip tube is above the false bottom and actually within the mash.

Brew day not going well so far :( maybe it will get better.

I am attaching a picture.

Thanks and kind regards
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