Brewing sours?

[gm-]

I really enjoy sours, but haven't really brewed them yet (except for one oude bruin that was very simple to make).

What is a good beer to start experimenting with sour brewing with? I was thinking maybe trying my hands on Berliner Weisse, using the WLP630 blend as I am not sure if I am comfortable with doing sour mashes yet.

[LiverDance]

This is a great place to read up on brewing some sours, I linked it to one of his berliner that it 100% lacto. I did mine with a blend and didn't find it tart enough.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... eisse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mcgster]

I would be up for trying to brew one as well. It would be great to compare recipes!

[gm-]

This is a great place to read up on brewing some sours, I linked it to one of his berliner that it 100% lacto. I did mine with a blend and didn't find it tart enough.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... eisse.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the info, good stuff. Sounds like his all lacto sour didn't turn out as tart as he expected. Could be tricky. Might try a blend first, and then venture into all lacto, or a sour mash

Any good books on the topic that you know of?

I would be up for trying to brew one as well. It would be great to compare recipes!

Yeah, sounds great, might brew mine up soon if I can get the bugs in from somewhere.

[mcgster]

I just ordered the American sours book from amazon. I'm going to get it this weekend. I also have a PDF copy of another sorus book i am printing off.


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[mcgster]

I'm going on vacation for a week and will probably rip through the books while I'm away. You are more than welcome to borrow them when I return


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[gm-]

Great, thanks a bunch.

I will probably give this recipe a go soon enough, should be a short brewday with no boil!
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/20 ... -brew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gm-]

Any thoughts on when to add the bug blend to an oud bruin? Last time I added it after I fermented with US-05 for 2 weeks, it wasn't quite sour enough. Thinking I might try it after 5 days now.

[LiverDance]

I would add it at the same time as the us-05 if it's straight up bugs, if it's a blend with some sacc, that's all i would use

[LiverDance]

Last time I added it after I fermented with US-05 for 2 weeks, it wasn't quite sour enough. .

are you saying you only let the bugs sit in the fermenter for 2 weeks? 3 months would be a minimum before i would even check it.

[Jimmy]

Any thoughts on when to add the bug blend to an oud bruin? Last time I added it after I fermented with US-05 for 2 weeks, it wasn't quite sour enough. Thinking I might try it after 5 days now.

According to the mad fermentationist:

Inoculation: I have gotten the best results adding all of the microbes at the start of the fermentation together with the primary Saccharomyces strain. I don’t generally make a starter for the bugs unless I am using pure cultures (for something like a 100% Brett beer). This is because the different microbes have different required conditions for growth. Yeast strains (including Brett) need oxygen, Pedio on the other hand can’t deal with oxygen. pH can also be an issue since the acid produced for bacteria can damage yeast cells (remember this when considering waiting to pitch a primary yeast to give the bacteria a head start).

Pretty much any standard yeast will do for primary fermentation. I have made great sour beers with American/English/Scottish/Belgian Ale, German Lager, and Saison strains. Some character from the primary yeast may remain in the finished beer, but most of the esters will be destroyed by the various other microbes (primarily Brettanomyces) over the long secondary fermentation. The biggest impact the primary yeast will have on the finished beer is the attenuation level (low attenuating strains will leave more sugars for the other microbes leading to beers with more sourness and funk).

I have not gotten enough sourness by doing a clean fermentation followed by microbes in secondary. This seems to work in barrels where the bugs are receiving some oxygen through the wood, but in a carboy the resulting beer generally lacks the sour assault that I crave. Adding microbes after primary fermentation is a fine idea if you just want some funk because Brett seems to be able to produce esters without a lot of gravity change.

I usually rack sour beers on the same sort of schedule I would a regular ale. I wait until primary fermentation is mostly complete and a good deal of the yeast/trub has settled out (2-3 weeks). Then I rack to a Better Bottle (or barrel), add the oak (if any), and slap on a stopper and airlock. Not much more to it than that.

If after 6 months or so the beer still has not shown any signs of souring I will often add the dregs from a few more bottles or sour beers to try to kick things off. As a last resort I may also add some malt extract to feed the microbes.

I would save ambient fermentation for after you get a good number of sours going. I have not tried it, so for the time being I don’t have much to say about it except that it is riskier than pitching known cultures either from a lab or bottle dregs. Even the best lambic breweries blend most of their barrels to reduce variability, if you try an ambient fermentation try to get several going so you have some blending options.

You can and should repitch yeast cakes from sour beers. Each time you repitch you will get more funk and sourness because the bacteria will grow faster than the yeast. It does not have a huge batch to batch impact in my experience, but it is something you will notice if you do for multiple batches. I generally only repitch 1-2 times, but that is more because I only generally want to do some non-sours as well. I have a friend who has been repitching and saving the same mixed culture for years without any problem.

[gm-]

Last time I added it after I fermented with US-05 for 2 weeks, it wasn't quite sour enough. .

are you saying you only let the bugs sit in the fermenter for 2 weeks? 3 months would be a minimum before i would even check it.

No, I added US-05, fermented for 2 weeks, and then transferred to carboy and added the bugs. Followed Jamil's recommendation on that, but it wasn't quite sour enough, so I'll think I'll try it now after 3-5 days.

According to the mad fermentationist:

Inoculation: I have gotten the best results adding all of the microbes at the start of the fermentation together with the primary Saccharomyces strain. I don’t generally make a starter for the bugs unless I am using pure cultures (for something like a 100% Brett beer). This is because the different microbes have different required conditions for growth. Yeast strains (including Brett) need oxygen, Pedio on the other hand can’t deal with oxygen. pH can also be an issue since the acid produced for bacteria can damage yeast cells (remember this when considering waiting to pitch a primary yeast to give the bacteria a head start).

Pretty much any standard yeast will do for primary fermentation. I have made great sour beers with American/English/Scottish/Belgian Ale, German Lager, and Saison strains. Some character from the primary yeast may remain in the finished beer, but most of the esters will be destroyed by the various other microbes (primarily Brettanomyces) over the long secondary fermentation. The biggest impact the primary yeast will have on the finished beer is the attenuation level (low attenuating strains will leave more sugars for the other microbes leading to beers with more sourness and funk).

I have not gotten enough sourness by doing a clean fermentation followed by microbes in secondary. This seems to work in barrels where the bugs are receiving some oxygen through the wood, but in a carboy the resulting beer generally lacks the sour assault that I crave. Adding microbes after primary fermentation is a fine idea if you just want some funk because Brett seems to be able to produce esters without a lot of gravity change.

I usually rack sour beers on the same sort of schedule I would a regular ale. I wait until primary fermentation is mostly complete and a good deal of the yeast/trub has settled out (2-3 weeks). Then I rack to a Better Bottle (or barrel), add the oak (if any), and slap on a stopper and airlock. Not much more to it than that.

If after 6 months or so the beer still has not shown any signs of souring I will often add the dregs from a few more bottles or sour beers to try to kick things off. As a last resort I may also add some malt extract to feed the microbes.

I would save ambient fermentation for after you get a good number of sours going. I have not tried it, so for the time being I don’t have much to say about it except that it is riskier than pitching known cultures either from a lab or bottle dregs. Even the best lambic breweries blend most of their barrels to reduce variability, if you try an ambient fermentation try to get several going so you have some blending options.

You can and should repitch yeast cakes from sour beers. Each time you repitch you will get more funk and sourness because the bacteria will grow faster than the yeast. It does not have a huge batch to batch impact in my experience, but it is something you will notice if you do for multiple batches. I generally only repitch 1-2 times, but that is more because I only generally want to do some non-sours as well. I have a friend who has been repitching and saving the same mixed culture for years without any problem.

Some good info here, wonder if it applies to oud bruins as well, as it is all about the balance of sweet and sour.

[Maritimer]

I'm starting a Flanders Red next week (also my first sour), just going to pitch the white labs Flemish ale blend straight into the primary and let it go.

[Bryan]

I am wondering if anyone has tried doing a sour the old fashion way? I.E. letting the cooled wort sit in a shallow container for some period of time (12 - 24 hours) and letting wild yeast enter the beer?

I know this is how Cantillon does it, but I don't think I have the patience to wait 1-3 years for a beer, haha.

[gm-]

I'm starting a Flanders Red next week (also my first sour), just going to pitch the white labs Flemish ale blend straight into the primary and let it go.

Yeah, from what I've been reading, that is the way to go for most sours, and definitely for flanders reds, but some say that a slightly different approach is needed for oud bruin. Will see how this one turns out, I fermented for 4 days with us-05, and then racked to carboy with the roselare blend. Will give it a go after 3 months when I will bottle for the December advent calendar.

[gm-]

I am wondering if anyone has tried doing a sour the old fashion way? I.E. letting the cooled wort sit in a shallow container for some period of time (12 - 24 hours) and letting wild yeast enter the beer?

I know this is how Cantillon does it, but I don't think I have the patience to wait 1-3 years for a beer, haha.

That is my dream, when I settle down somewhere (i.e. buy a house with huge brew space) I am hoping to brew wild yeast lambics at least once a year, then blend when you have multiple year classes

[chalmers]

I am wondering if anyone has tried doing a sour the old fashion way? I.E. letting the cooled wort sit in a shallow container for some period of time (12 - 24 hours) and letting wild yeast enter the beer?

I know this is how Cantillon does it, but I don't think I have the patience to wait 1-3 years for a beer, haha.

I haven't, and don't know of anyone in our region who has done this with great success. The microflora of the Senne Valley (origin of lambic) is pretty special, and I don't think we've got the same bacteria in the same counts in our air. Plus, I'd argue the decades old barrels that are full of bugs play a very significant part in the fermentation character.

Having said that, we had plans previously to brew some wort and leave it in an apple and/or wine orchard overnight to see what would happen. Maybe spring 2015?

[sleepyjamie]

TimG seems to have a decent wild yeast n his house


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[chalmers]

I feel like there's a story to be told here!

[mcgster]

Neat article on brewing sours on HBT today.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/beginning-solera.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gm-]

Hmm, this is something to consider for the barrel sour project.

[gm-]

Any thoughts on when to transfer to a secondary for a longer term ageing?

Have an Oud bruin that has been in primary for couple of months now, wondering whether I should transfer soon or if I am ok for few more months. It is sitting on roselare blend.

[CartoonCod]

I think both ways are fine. I'm not sure which is better. There might be some yeast autolysis but I read the bacteria and Brett will assimilate the off flavours. In solera barrels they ferment and age for up to three years with reported good results. I'm pretty sure in lambic brewing the beer stays on the yeast the whole time as well.

[BBrianBoogie]

Any thoughts on when to transfer to a secondary for a longer term ageing?

Have an Oud bruin that has been in primary for couple of months now, wondering whether I should transfer soon or if I am ok for few more months. It is sitting on roselare blend.

Adam is correct, lambic is usually left in the primary the whole time (2-3 years usually). As I understand it, this is generally not the case for Flanders Reds/Oud Bruins. Traditionally a red is transferred to a barrel for aging/maturing and a brown is generally matured in a stainless vessel (though I'm sure would have been an oak barrel at some point in history).

I've had good luck with lambic staying in primary for the whole time. Keep in mind though, plastic buckets wouldn't be recommended for an extended primary, as they are somewhat oxygen permeable. I've used a carboy for these.

I would transfer a red/bruin for extended maturing if I were you. I've done so with good results. If you're worried about not having enough character by transferring too early you needn't be. With time, they'll develop nicely.

Good luck, it's always an interesting part of the brewing world to play with.

[gm-]

Sounds good, I think I will transfer it to other carboy soon, have you tried oak bungs for extended ageing?