Brewing Burnout - Help!

[GuingesRock]

I don't think I was putting people down, and sorry if it sounded that way. I was saying, and I strongly believe so, that BCS is doing nothing for the craft beer movement and doing very little for brewers. BCS is so accepted, almost without question, and I like to question things.

[Keith]

You have to assert yourself in your brewing and express your individuality. That's the kick of it. That's why I hate books such as "Brewing Classic Styles" and "Modern Homebrew Recipes". They kill originality and progress in brewing. The whole world is brewing beer from BCS (not just Canada, I was on an Australian site and they were all doing that). Books such as "Designing Great Beers" however, and also this one: http://www.amazon.ca/Home-Brewing-Beers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 1453851496 (a great beginners book) point people in the direction of designing their own beers, developing a brewing style and advancing craft brewing by people enjoying using their imagination and creativity. There's no advantage at all to being a sheep and brewing someone else's beers the whole world over.

To use one of your own favorite phrases, in my opinion, telling folks they're sheep for using existing recipes is "harmful to craft beer". You're telling people that the way they do things isn't good enough because it doesn't meet your definition of what craft beer should be. And how ironic that one of your targets of scorn is the recipes of BCS, largely developed by Jamil Zainasheff as he progressed in the hobby through winning the Ninkasi Award ("Brewer of the Year") to opening his own brewery.

Have you ever had a Caesar salad? Pretty basic recipe. Eggs, garlic, mustard, oil, vinegar, Worcestershire sauce, salt and pepper, bread, bacon, lettuce and parmesan reggiano. But I'm not sure I've ever had two Caesar salads that have tasted the same. Some folks have different technique. Some have access to different equipment. Some alter amounts or add other ingredients. They're all "Caesar salad". But they're all different.

I contend that recipes are one of the least important aspects of brewing. Further, I'm pretty sure if I did the right search on this forum I'd be able to quote you saying that yourself. If you gave the same recipe to 20 brewers on this board and had them meet up 2 months later with the beer they made from that recipe, I think you'd find more tasted different than the same.

And you also seem to be suggesting that recipe innovation is somehow fundamental or primal. Is the recipe the only way to be original in brewing? I would hope not. You can innovate with technique (for instance, fermenting in your kettle), or equipment (like say, integrating a coil for temperature control during fermentation). Or ingredients (e.g,. avoiding crystal or using maris otter as your only pale malt). Any of those sound familiar? And if innovation is the only way forward we should all sell all our gear and buy Braumeisters or Grainfathers or that wicked thing Jimmy's got. Until the next innovation comes out and then we all need to get that.

You're making a very similar argument to the one that goes, "Person A is greater/more authentic than Person B because he/she writes his/her own music and/or plays his/her own instruments." Being a great performer has fuck all to do with being able to write a great tune or play an instrument. Frank Sinatra didn't write much of anything that anyone can name. He could probably plunk out a tune on a couple of different instruments but he was hardly accomplished as a player. But he's one of the greatest and most beloved performers of all time. And "original" is still a term that people use to describe him.

I firmly believe it is possible for someone to be a great brewer without writing a single original recipe or mastering the most complex brewing system. Because there's more to being a brewer than recipes and techniques. Being a brewer is about making beer that makes someone happy. If your only intended audience is yourself, that's going to be easier than if you're trying to win competitions around North America and probably a lot easier than selling hectoliters of beer in Malaysia. Telling people that their beer isn't good enough because they're not constantly innovating and writing their own recipes is elitist bullshit. Your goals for brewing are not my goals. And I take issue with you suggesting that they should be.

Wonder if I can put this as my signature.

[Buccaneer]

I was saying, and I strongly believe so, that BCS is doing nothing for the craft beer movement and doing very little for brewers.

That's a pretty narrow-minded view. Unless you know for certain that everyone that ever used BCS never innovated or invented any recipe on their own, then really you're guessing. It would be interesting to know how many craft breweries have been founded by brewers that got their start on BCS. If that number is not non-zero, then you're a bit misguided.

BCS is a brewing tool, just like a chiller, kettle, fancy fermenter, chugger, whatever. I like to make use of the tools that I have available to me. I would say that, in addition to the beer, you've chosen to make your own tools in order to make that beer. Both are perfectly valid approaches.

Regarding burnout, if there a possibility that the extra effort you put into everything because of purposely avoiding certain pre-established guides resulted in some extra pressure?

[GuingesRock]

I was saying, and I strongly believe so, that BCS is doing nothing for the craft beer movement and doing very little for brewers.

That's a pretty narrow-minded view. Unless you know for certain that everyone that ever used BCS never innovated or invented any recipe on their own, then really you're guessing. It would be interesting to know how many craft breweries have been founded by brewers that got their start on BCS. If that number is not non-zero, then you're a bit misguided.

BCS is a brewing tool, just like a chiller, kettle, fancy fermenter, chugger, whatever. I like to make use of the tools that I have available to me. I would say that, in addition to the beer, you've chosen to make your own tools in order to make that beer. Both are perfectly valid approaches.

Regarding burnout, if there a possibility that the extra effort you put into everything because of purposely avoiding certain pre-established guides resulted in some extra pressure?

You have some good points. There's probably good and bad to it. My concern is it may be quashing creativity. Any way I've had a chance to say what I think.

[mumblecrunch]

I don't think I was putting people down, and sorry if it sounded that way. I was saying, and I strongly believe so, that BCS is doing nothing for the craft beer movement and doing very little for brewers. BCS is so accepted, almost without question, and I like to question things.

There's nothing wrong with questioning things. But if there's no BCS, what do you question?

BCS provides a safe and reliable place to go to find a recipe for Style X. If you've never made Style X before (or, as is the case for a lot of us, if you've never even tasted Style X before) you still stand to make a pretty reasonable version of Style X if you use the recipe listed for it in BCS.

Why is this valuable? Because it makes brewing accessible. You like a challenge, that's great for you. Tell me, did you pass on purchasing an anatomy text at uni? Did you ask your instructor, "Right then, are you sure that's the liver, then?" I'll wager not. There are some wheels that aren't worth re-inventing every time, some areas where going back and re-establishing your universe of discourse from first principles does nothing but waste people's time and, worse, discourage them.

But if you can get someone in on some kind of easily-accessible common ground floor, maybe that's when you wake up the innovator or the experimenter inside that person. Or maybe there isn't one, and that's okay too. I would take a world where more people are brewing even if they're all brewing Bud Lite clones because brewing puts people in touch with their beer.

Innovation is important, but so are the basics and establishing a baseline. If people continue to innovate then a book like BCS will start to show its age. To some degree it will need refreshing for the BJCP 2015 styles as it is. But that doesn't mean the recipes contained will not always be an excellent reflection of the state of craft beer styles as we have understood them over the last decade or so.

[GuingesRock]

Learning about the liver is like learning about malt. Learn about hops, yeast and water, learn how to brew, learn about the beer you want to brew and you will make a fine example of that beer. BCS allows a short cut in the final part of that process (learning about the beer). That part of the process is just as interesting, if not more so, than the rest of it.

[mumblecrunch]

Learning about the liver is like learning about malt. Learn about hops, yeast and water, learn how to brew, learn about the beer you want to brew and you will make a fine example of that beer. BCS allows a short cut in the final part of that process (learning about the beer). That part of the process is just as interesting, if not more so, than the rest of it.

I appreciate that you believe that, and I'm not saying your position isn't valid or noble. But the way you're saying it, as if it's a universal statement of fact rather than a value proposition based on your own view of brewing, comes across as dismissive. I could counter that since you're not growing your own barley and malting it, not developing your own hop varieties and not innovating your own yeast strains then you still have a long way to go. But I won't because that's an equally fallacious argument.

Would you be the brewer you are today if you hadn't tried that FestaBrew (or whatever kind of kit it was) a couple of years ago? Would you even be a brewer? You were happy with that first beer! You wouldn't be now, but you were then. From there your personality and tendencies have taken you on a rather remarkable (pun not intended, really) journey. But if you'd just kept making kits you'd still be a brewer in my eyes; a very different one, but a brewer nonetheless.

People have to start somewhere, and everybody has a different goal (and people's goals also tend to shift with time). There are folks out there brewing who are quite happy to keep making the same beer they love over and over again. Are they innovating? Maybe not, but maybe in order to improve their repeatability they've developed some interesting technique or equipment. Are they advancing the craft of brewing? Maybe, maybe not, but they are brewing and the more people who brew the better off we all are. Let's be happy that there are resources like the BCS book that encourage people to try new things and lower the barrier to entry. Brewing is what brings folks together on forums such as these and in real life. The more the merrier, I say.

[jason.loxton]

I actually think that one ought to spend a lot of time brewing other people's recipes in the first couple years, and only move onto creating your recipes once you've built up some really solid skills. Why? For the reason I gave in my first post: Brewing should be fun, and one of the things that makes it most fun is creating a product that tastes delicious and which that you can be proud of. When people are beginning, the odds that they can create a recipe as good as those in BCS or posted from the AHA national winners (or create a whole new a needed style) is really slim. I'd recommend that starting brewers spend time brewing tried and proven recipes to work on their technique/sample new styles first (tweaking a little around the edges), and only after they've spent a while on that journey start formulating from scratch.

There's nothing more discouraging than hours of work for a mediocre product, even if you've got total ownership--from conception to execution--for that mediocrity.

[GuingesRock]

I appreciate the discussion Jason and Aaron

I thought I wasn't going to say any more as both sides have been well expressed, but there's one more thing I'd like to run by you. (Trying to say things better Aaron )

There's nothing more discouraging than hours of work for a mediocre product, even if you've got total ownership--from conception to execution--for that mediocrity.

I could be wrong about this, but if everything is in place, like care with brewing technique and quality ingredients, it is very hard to make mediocre beer. Whatever you make will almost certainly be better than 95% of commercially available beer. If you haven't yet fully mastered a good brewing technique, or if you buy a bad order of hops online, and you unwittingly keep brewing with them, BCS won't help you.

At some point I'd recommend taking the plunge, at least for a brew or two, You may never look back.

[jason.loxton]

With genuine respect, I think you are wrong about that, Mark. It's really easy to make an unbalanced, mediocre beer, and really disappointing when you do. (I made plenty in my early days.)

I'd liken my philosophy on brewing to my philosophy on baking: I'd recommend that people who have never baked before start with a cake mix, and master the basics of baking time, oiling pans, etc. Once they're comfortable with that, I'd recommend that they search the Internet to find some recipes that have tons of 5 star reviews. Bake some of those, starting with simple things you know and then working your way to more exotic fare to expand your palette (it is especially important to use a tried and true recipe if you don't know what the final product should taste like). After that, I'd recommend experimenting with small variations, guided by a comments, comparisons of other recipes, and your own taste, e.g., what if I subbed brown for white sugar, what if I added some orange extract, what if I used a cream cheese icing, etc Only at the very end (and there is no reason everyone needs to get to this stage) should one consider opening up their cupboard and grabbing flour, sugar, and baking powder and winging it to produce a recipe from scratch.

Following the analogy, I am very strong advocate of kit brewing for beginners, followed by proven recipes. I give BCS as a satisfying entry point to friends frequently, and still use it myself as an entry point when I am trying a new style. (As an aside, it is worth noting that BCS gives recipes, yes, but it also precedes the recipes with a discussion of variations and tweaks, a discussion that is greatly expanded on in the original podcast format (the Jamil Show), and even more so in Jamil's follow up series, Brewing With Style; people might chose not to move beyond the recipe book--and again, I think there's nothing wrong with this, if you're happy with the outcome--but Jamil encourages people to, and gives them tools to do so.)

[GuingesRock]

Can we both be right?

I'm outnumbered as usual.

[jacinthebox]

Can we both be right?

I'm outnumbered as usual.

you're wrong...I have a lager that scored 22 to prove it

[jason.loxton]

Agreed to disagree! Done!

[Keith]

you're wrong...I have a lager that scored 22 to prove it

Nice to see your scores are improving.

[jacinthebox]

you're wrong...I have a lager that scored 22 to prove it

Nice to see your scores are improving.

figured I would step up my game...It's really a 44 if you drink 2

[Keith]

you're wrong...I have a lager that scored 22 to prove it

Nice to see your scores are improving.

figured I would step up my game...It's really a 44 if you drink 2

Sure is!

[GuingesRock]

you're wrong...I have a lager that scored 22 to prove it

Nice to see your scores are improving.

figured I would step up my game...It's really a 44 if you drink 2

[GuingesRock]

Back to burnout. I posted a link to this thread on Twitter and one of the Brewers asked me if I thought Brewer Burnout is caused by the volume needed to compete nationally.

My answer ...a resounding YES!!!!!!!!!

As a result of linking this thread to Twitter, I have been asked to contribute/help work on, a document to be presented to Brewer Of The Year with suggestions for change. My thought was to have an entry cap per brewer of 10 entries for every competition. Someone else suggested 8. There are also thoughts that the number of competitions on the circuit is now getting out of hand.

If there are any comments I won't discuss but will act as the messenger and will pass them on. I'll probably just send a link to this part of the thread.

[GuingesRock]

Over the past day or two, there has incidentally also been occurring, a rapidly growing Movement of brewers, lobbying to ban the printing and distribution of any further copies of BCS.

[mcgster]

Over the past day or two, there has incidentally also been occurring, a rapidly growing Movement of brewers, lobbying to ban the printing and distribution of any further copies of BCS.

I hope that isn't true, it would be pretty disrespectful to a phenomenal brewer and one who has devoted much of his time to advancing the hobby.

It's funny, the introduction to his book expressing many of the same views you have in this thread and many others.

Someone asked me how long we have been working on this book, and I started thinking back to my first conversations with John. Before I could answer, someone else said, “He’s been working on it since he started brewing.” Ah yes, that is so true. The recipes in this book are the product of dozens of countries visited, hundreds of batches brewed, and thousands of beers tasted. When I started home-brewing, I set myself the goal of being able to brew a good example of every recognized style in the BJCP. To check on my progress, I entered my beers in a number of competitions. I methodically tweaked and tested each recipe until the beers began to win awards. In fact, every recipe in this book has won a number of awards, some more than others, but all are proven recipes.

Many people wonder why I would be willing to “give away my award-winning recipes.” Those who taught me to brew all shared a core ethic: If you know something about brewing, you share it with others. It seems to me that all of the best brewers I know are willing to share their recipes and techniques. They hold nothing back. Brewers who feel the need to hide a recipe or other information often only have one or two beers that they can brew well and are afraid to let it go for fear of not finding more good recipes.

Our hope is that you will look at this book as much more than just a collection of recipes, and once you learn from it, you will build upon that knowledge and share it with others. This book is intended as a guide to help you successfully brew the most recognized beer styles in the world. Too many brewers focus on just a handful of their favorite styles and miss out on some really wonderful beer styles. Don’t let that happen to you. Please make an effort to brew every style in this book well.”

Some people ask how to become a better brewer. Becoming a great brewer is like becoming a great chef. Foremost, it takes a great deal of practice to master the fundamentals. You don’t become a great chef without mastering the basic cooking techniques and the most common menu items. Once you have mastered the basics, then you can stretch your wings and create some new and unusual dish. It is the same for brewing. You must master the basics of sanitation, fermentation, and ingredients. You must understand how to brew to style before you can soar and create something entirely new.

Excerpt From: Jamil Zainasheff. “Brewing Classic Styles.” iBooks.

[GuingesRock]

Each to his own Mark

I wasn't being serious though

[GuingesRock]

http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... f=3&t=8959" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GuingesRock]

...It's much more likely there is a growing movement to ban any further GR posts.

[Jimmy]

Back to burnout. I posted a link to this thread on Twitter and one of the Brewers asked me if I thought Brewer Burnout is caused by the volume needed to compete nationally.

My answer ...a resounding YES!!!!!!!!!

As a result of linking this thread to Twitter, I have been asked to contribute/help work on, a document to be presented to Brewer Of The Year with suggestions for change. My thought was to have an entry cap per brewer of 10 entries for every competition. Someone else suggested 8. There are also thoughts that the number of competitions on the circuit is now getting out of hand.

If there are any comments I won't discuss but will act as the messenger and will pass them on. I'll probably just send a link to this part of the thread.

I think there should be a BCS recipe only competition, so you can see who has the best technique

[GuingesRock]

Back to burnout. I posted a link to this thread on Twitter and one of the Brewers asked me if I thought Brewer Burnout is caused by the volume needed to compete nationally.

My answer ...a resounding YES!!!!!!!!!

As a result of linking this thread to Twitter, I have been asked to contribute/help work on, a document to be presented to Brewer Of The Year with suggestions for change. My thought was to have an entry cap per brewer of 10 entries for every competition. Someone else suggested 8. There are also thoughts that the number of competitions on the circuit is now getting out of hand.

If there are any comments I won't discuss but will act as the messenger and will pass them on. I'll probably just send a link to this part of the thread.

I think there should be a BCS recipe only competition, so you can see who has the best technique

And a design your own beer competition so more people will try it.