Kettle

[mcgster]

Oh i agree that it matters to a point for sure, I just think that the majority of major improvements in brewing equipment are made to either make life easier, or focus on a very specific style of beer to do over and over again.

[canuck]

^ Same goes with Maine Beer Company. Six years ago they started out on a simple 1bbl system that's still displayed in their taproom. IMHO, like Mark mentioned, quality beer has absolutely nothing to do with quality gear. A great brewer can brew fantastic beer on a simple system, but a novice brewer won't likely brew a great beer on an advanced system.

[mcgster]

Great point about Maine Beer Company, they have a great write up in their brewery that talks about how they got their start until they made the big leap into their new location.

[GuingesRock]

In 1949 someone took out a patent on a heat collecting plate made of steel or copper designed to collect the heat from a gas flame and distribute it evenly to a pot.

"form of a plate which can be placed over an ordinary gas burner and which will absorb the heat direct from the flame and apply it uniformly to a pot, pan or other form of cooking utensil supported thereon"

http://www.google.com/patents/US2565726" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heat collecting and distributing plate
US 2565726 A

Publication number US2565726 A
Publication type Grant
Publication date Aug 28, 1951
Filing date Jul 26, 1949
Priority date Jul 26, 1949

Inventors Garrison Charles T
Original Assignee Garrison Charles T
Export Citation BiBTeX, EndNote, RefMan
Patent Citations (3), Referenced by (8), Classifications (5)


External Links: USPTO, USPTO Assignment, Espacenet

I know someone holding a patent doesn't mean anything except they really thought it was a good thing, but it may have relevance as to why such plates are not available commercially.

[mcgster]

It isn't commercially available because there is no market for it. A plate to uniformly distribute heat is no longer an issue with gas stoves at all. I worked in restaurants for years in university and never once did i hear the chef complain about hot spots on the gas range and they were using single walled stainless steel pans for all the cooking. New gas ranges distribute the heat very well on their own compared to old burners with only a few nozzles. That would hinder a chef's ability to cook using a gas stove and slow it down significantly.

[GuingesRock]

It isn't commercially available

or is it? only had a minute to check. Will look later for others


https://www.thegrommet.com/bella-copper ... ter-plates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mcgster]

They aren't commercially used - i'm sure someone sells balls of tinfoil for earrings too but it doesn't mean they have utility.

[Keith]

They aren't commercially used - i'm sure someone sells balls of tinfoil for earrings too but it doesn't mean they have utility.

[Jayme]

How many commercial kitchens have you actually worked in exactly? Your last two statements are so overly confident that I am quite confident they are not correct.

If someone is legitimately trying to improve heat distribution, while a copper plate like the one g-rock posted would slow down the start of the boil, I'm not sure it would be that large a draw back. I have both a cheap Chinese SS kettle as well as a heavy duty polarware burner. I have used both on a propane burner and prefer the polarware. While I have not timed flame on to boil with each, it's such a small difference that I really don't care about the extra few cents in propane.

[GuingesRock]

Back when I was 19 I learnt metal work at college, forge work, milling, brazing, forge welding, wrought iron work etc. One of the things I remember learning was how to temper steel. You heat the steel up until it turns a certain colour and then plunge it into a water bath. For example, if you do that with carbon steel and heat it until it turns blue you make spring steel.

Would anyone mind looking at the bottom of their pots and see if you see any of these colours? it could be an indication those parts of the pots have got to very high temperatures. Please would you also report back, yes or no, and include details of type of pot and heat source.

Randy Mosher eluded to this in his email.

steel_tempering_colour_chart.png

Mark - I asked you about your "T" (was it T?) values and the equations you were claiming to be very relevant. If they are relevant please would you mind posting with an explanation of your interpretation. You're keeping secrets here

[GuingesRock]

Yes Jayme, nothing is cut and dried in a real life scenario. It's all good in the lab. Try applying science to human beings (medicine). There's always some variable that hasn't been accounted for, and that variable is often crucial.

[mcgster]

How many commercial kitchens have you actually worked in exactly? Your last two statements are so overly confident that I am quite confident they are not correct.

If someone is legitimately trying to improve heat distribution, while a copper plate like the one g-rock posted would slow down the start of the boil, I'm not sure it would be that large a draw back. I have both a cheap Chinese SS kettle as well as a heavy duty polarware burner. I have used both on a propane burner and prefer the polarware. While I have not timed flame on to boil with each, it's such a small difference that I really don't care about the extra few cents in propane.

Me? I worked in four different restaurants. Spent many hours cleaning up after the night was over and speaking with the chefs trying to get tips on cooking for myself. I'm not sure what you mean by overly confident, i have also seen hundreds of cooking shows spouting the most minuscule tips to improve your cooking and no one ever mentioned using a copper plate to improve cooking on a gas range.

[GuingesRock]

In the brewing world, Randy Mosher has mentioned it. We're investigating this now. I am hopeful that we are reaching some valid conclusions by putting our heads together and hopefully do some experiments too. Practical experience, like that provided by Jamye is very valuable. Theory - not so much. ...although it does have a place for sure. Any study has a theoretical pre-amble but the theory MUST be put to the test.

[mcgster]

Mark - I asked you about your "T" (was it T?) values and the equations you were claiming to be very relevant. If they are relevant please would you mind posting with an explanation of your interpretation. You're keeping secrets here

I'm not keeping secretes here G-Rock, but the process of heat transfer is best taught by someone more qualified then me. Heat moves based on the difference in temperature between mediums, the rate of temperature movement is dependent on the conductivity of the material and the difference in temperature

I'm not sure what more i can say, as i stated before i agree that a plate would decrease the likelihood of hot spots, but your statement that efficiency would increase is incorrect and would defy the basic principles of heat transfer. I'm not saying how big or small the change in efficiency would be, that would depend greatly on the variables like conductivity of the metal, how close the contact was with the pot it was heating, and BTU's of the burner. But i am saying without a bit of doubt that it will not increase efficiency.

So to Jayme's point that the difference may be negligible i have no problem with that statement because i'm sure given the right combination of variables and with some effort the difference could be small, but it would not increase efficiency, that is all i am saying here.

[GuingesRock]

Mark, I wasn't making a "statement". I was exploring. You mentioned it was then "number of layers that was crucial", and disagreed when I said it was a function of the thermal conductivity and the thickness of each layer. They now have 5 clad and 7 clad cooking pots! Each layer being a metal with different properties. A 1" pot with a thin layer of SS with a thick layer of copper would perform more efficiently that a pot with a 1" simple SS base. It isn't simply the number of layers. I'm not even sure the number of layers is relevant. Was it then that you threw in the T value?

[mcgster]

Haha that wouldn't be a wise bet on your part Mark, no need to test something as well studied as heat transfer! No possible way that adding a scrap piece of metal between the burner and pot would INCREASE your efficiency.

Them's fighting words! I was good at physics too.

Anyone wanting to lay bets now's your chance.

We are clearly talking about the same thing here, adding a piece of metal underneath a pot, not tri-clad pots or 1" copper vs 1" stainless pots.

Mark, I wasn't making a "statement". I was exploring. You mentioned it was then "number of layers that was crucial", and disagreed when I said it was a function of the thermal conductivity and the thickness of each layer. They now have 5 clad and 7 clad cooking pots! Each layer being a metal with different properties. A 1" pot with a thin layer of SS with a thick layer of copper would perform more efficiently that a pot with a 1" simple SS base. It isn't simply the number of layers. I'm not even sure the number of layers is relevant. Was it then that you threw in the T value?

Number of layers is crucial when they are discontinuous (i.e. adding a piece of metal underneath your pot) comparing a 1" stainless and a 1" copper / stainless pot is not at all what we are talking about. You could calculate that using thermal conductive formulas quite easily when the materials are formed together.

[GuingesRock]

Number of layers is crucial when they are discontinuous (i.e. adding a piece of metal underneath your pot) comparing a 1" stainless and a 1" copper / stainless pot is not at all what we are talking about. You could calculate that using thermal conductive formulas quite easily when the materials are formed together.

That's a statement! But why? The heat has to go somewhere. It goes to the next layer. I don't understand. Was it the elusive formula and the "delta T" that explains this? I am simply trying to understand. Bland statements don't help me.

[mcgster]

I honestly assumed that you had googled heat transfer at some point in this week long discussion, but Fourier's law assuming no change in state of the material is:

q = k A dT / s (1)

where

q = heat transfer (W, J/s, Btu/hr)

A = heat transfer area (m2, ft2)

k = thermal conductivity of the material (W/m K or W/m oC, Btu/(hr oF ft2/ft))

dT = temperature gradient - difference - in the material (K or oC, oF)

s = material thickness (m, ft)

Heat conducted through several walls or layers in thermal contact can be expressed as

q = (T1 - Tn) / ((s1 / k1 A) + (s2 / k2 A) + ... + (sn / kn A)) (2)

where

T1 = temperature inside surface (K or oC, oF)

Tn = temperature outside surface (K or oC, oF)

[GuingesRock]

Great! Thanks! will look at that when have a few minutes.

[jacinthebox]

[GuingesRock]

I honestly assumed that you had googled heat transfer at some point in this week long discussion, but Fourier's law assuming no change in state of the material is:

q = k A dT / s (1)

where

q = heat transfer (W, J/s, Btu/hr)

A = heat transfer area (m2, ft2)

k = thermal conductivity of the material (W/m K or W/m oC, Btu/(hr oF ft2/ft))

dT = temperature gradient - difference - in the material (K or oC, oF)

s = material thickness (m, ft)

Heat conducted through several walls or layers in thermal contact can be expressed as

q = (T1 - Tn) / ((s1 / k1 A) + (s2 / k2 A) + ... + (sn / kn A)) (2)

where

T1 = temperature inside surface (K or oC, oF)

Tn = temperature outside surface (K or oC, oF)

Do you have any spare time Mark (later maybe) to throw in some realistic numbers as an example to compare 1 layer vs. 2 layers?

Thermal conductivity isn't the only factor at play I was dong some googling this morning. There's thermal capacity of the material, thermal diffusivity .... http://www.cookingforengineers.com/arti ... f-Cookware" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

It's a bit mind boggling. That's what happened to the guy in Justin's picture.

Isn't it time to move on to the test phase now?

[RossBee]

Boys, relax, the guy wanted to buy pot, that's it, just a pot.

My thermal engineering experience tells me I should comment on your last few posts, but It's much more fun watching, you'll eventually come to the right conclusion. Heat transfer and distribution are mostly inversley related during normal cirumstances.

[mcgster]

Well the correct answer would depend on the different variables being known like the thickness of metal plate btu of the burner and the metals conductance, which I really don't care to work out because the answer will change immensely depending on the plates thickness and material it is made from and a generalization can't be made for all plates except that they will not increase efficiency. It would just tell us how much a plate of a given thickness and area would decrease it


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[MitchK]

The burner and kettle are interdependent systems if you're trying to avoid hot spots - one of those rocket/jet burners is going to benefit from a clad bottom a lot more than a banjo burner where the flame is already spread out.

[GuingesRock]

Boys, relax, the guy wanted to buy pot, that's it, just a pot.

Steffen ...that word JUST is nearly always a prelude to a deception

He's bought the pot. We're all a bit pot obsessed and always trying to get the right one. I don't have a burner or I'd do some testing.