Soda Dispensing Troubles

[Paucey]

Hi everybody,

I'm trying to setup my first force carbonated keg with a dispensing line. I think I'm doing everything properly but I'm running into an issue. When I try to dispense my soda (oh, yeah, btw it's soda not beer...) from the keg it comes out as just foam and when the foam has subsided the soda is more or less entirely flat. Here's the setup I'm using:

I have my keg in a refrigerator set to 5 degrees celcius using a Ranco temperature controller. I have my CO2 tank set at 27psi going into the keg for a target of 3.7 volumes of CO2. My dispensing line is 3/16" ID (5/16" OD) and is 8 feet 7 inches long the majority of which is in the fridge with the keg. I arrived at that line length using the formula "Length = (27 - 1) / 3", 3 (so I'm told) being the resistance per foot a 3/16" ID line will affect upon the soda being dispensed, 27 being the psi of the soda, and the -1 to leave 1 psi at the end of the line to allow for pressure for pouring.

Now, to my dismerit, I mistakenly took the result of that equation "8.66" as being 8 feet 7 inches when it is more correctly 8 feet 8 inches. So my line is technically an inch too short at the moment.

I had the CO2 connected to the keg for about a week now so I'm fairly confident that the soda should have carbonated to the desired level and, in fact, using my counter-pressure bottle filler I can get carbonated soda into bottles. However, when I dispense from the keg using my dispensing line, it comes out all foam and way too fast. What am I doing wrong here? Am I not supposed to have the CO2 regulator at 27psi for dispensing? Does the dispensing line actually have to be extended to its length? Is my math wrong somewhere? Am I doing something fundamentally incorrectly that I haven't noticed?

Thank you for any help or insight... this is driving me mad! And, actually, does anyone know a good place to get non-toxic vinyl 3/16" ID line in town? I don't think Noble Grape on Quinpool carries it...

[derek]

I have my keg in a refrigerator set to 5 degrees celcius using a Ranco temperature controller. I have my CO2 tank set at 27psi going into the keg for a target of 3.7 volumes of CO2.
...
Now, to my dismerit, I mistakenly took the result of that equation "8.66" as being 8 feet 7 inches when it is more correctly 8 feet 8 inches. So my line is technically an inch too short at the moment.

An inch really makes no difference!

I haven't tried doing this in a keg - I just pressurize individual PET bottles with a carbonator cap - but it sounds to me like your formula is probably wrong, because you're not getting 1PSI out the tap.

(and no, it doesn't matter what you do with the 8 ft of hose)

[Paucey]

I figured an inch doesn't really make a difference for it.

I should also note that I'm using one of those crappy black plastic taps that people use for keggers... I've read they don't work very well with dispensing anything that's highly pressurized and that they're meant more for hand-pumped dispensing. That may just be my problem there.

Also I've read that on an ordinary faucet a shank of 1/4" reduces foaming issues compared to a shank of 3/16". And the way my line is setup is doesn't have a shank at all... just the 3/16" line going directly into the black plastic tap.

[mr x]

8 feet sounds way to short at that pressure and temperature. NG does carry the simgo stuff which is heavy wall. Stellar industrial carries it in 100 ft boxes of thin wall. Ratchet does soda, send him a pm if he misses this. Maybe edit the title to include 'soda' as well. You can fix the title by editing the first post.

[LiverDance]

sounds like you carbed it at 27 psi and that is good but to serve it with 8 ft of line you will need to set it at a lower psi so you don't get foaming. Try 12psi and see what happens.

[RubberToe]

8 feet sounds way to short at that pressure and temperature. NG does carry the simgo stuff which is heavy wall. Stellar industrial carries it in 100 ft boxes of thin wall. Ratchet does soda, send him a pm if he misses this. Maybe edit the title to include 'soda' as well. You can fix the title by editing the first post.

I second that, the line is way too short for that kind of pressure. I stick with the 1' of line per 1 psi (for thumb taps anyways) and play with that. Actually I go a little shorter than that rule (10 ft / 13 psi), but still..

You could use those plastic pieces people have been getting from McMaster to add resistance in the keg dip tube as well, it seems like a waste to have all that line coiled up.

[Paucey]

Thanks for all the advice that is all very helpful! I'll give a lot of these suggestions a shot... starting with trying a longer dispensing line and working my way down, maybe tweaking the dispensing pressure to 12 or so psi as well. I'd hate to have nearly 27' of line but it sounds like those line resisters are a promising lead as well.

I also thought 8 feet sounded way too short so I'm crossing my fingers that is the problem.

[RubberToe]

This:

http://myadventuresinbrewing.blogspot.c ... -foam.html

I think there are some members here that may have some extra to sell. It would suck to buy 27' of like for 89 cents / ft at NG.

[ratchet]

I have my pressure set in the ~30 psi range (for carbonated water), and use approximately the same line length as you.

You'll want to get some of those bayonettes to put in your diptube (I'd use 3 of them, perhaps 4 if they'd fit)
Also, whatever tap you're using... be sure to open it fully (if it's a thumb tap, squeeze it all the way) when you pour, as a partially open tap is a quick way to nothing but foam.

I may have some bayonettes left... I'd have to check to be sure though.

I'd start with the bayonettes (assuming you're already opening the tap fully), and see if that fixes your issues before you go adding more line.

[OntarioBeerkegs]

Going to sound weird.. But for soda try 30ft 30 psi and 20ft 20 psi. Most people have problems trying to set up soda with the science and end up getting a nice pour on one of these settings. Soda is not like beer it is a syrupy thicker solution. If I had to guess it is getting too much turbulence from the PSI and knocking your CO2 out of solution. Keep in mind most commercial systems have a long run or it passes through a 25' chilling coil or a plate chiller.

[derek]

Soda is not like beer it is a syrupy thicker solution.

I think he really means Soda (Bicarbonate & water), not pop, so it isn't thicker.

[mr x]

Now i want to get some pepsi and my hydrometer.

[OntarioBeerkegs]

I just begged my wife to get a bottle of pepsi, no luck. I would guess around 30°Bx. Let me know the actual if you do it!

[NASH]

I've been making soda (not soda water, soda=pop depending on what country you're in) in breweries since Christ was a cowboy and that was a while ago. They're generally in the 10 - 13 brix range with a safe PH of 3.9 or below, most are WELL below for that extra bite. To make good soda you'll need some acid to get the ph down, depending on what you're making you could use citric or phosphoric. We usually carb to a max of ~ 3.0 vols, even at 2.7 - 2.8 it's excellent.

[know1]

I have my pressure set in the ~30 psi range (for carbonated water), and use approximately the same line length as you.

You'll want to get some of those bayonettes to put in your diptube (I'd use 3 of them, perhaps 4 if they'd fit)
Also, whatever tap you're using... be sure to open it fully (if it's a thumb tap, squeeze it all the way) when you pour, as a partially open tap is a quick way to nothing but foam.

I may have some bayonettes left... I'd have to check to be sure though.

I'd start with the bayonettes (assuming you're already opening the tap fully), and see if that fixes your issues before you go adding more line.

I second the wide open tap. Also make sure there are no issues or obstructions with your connection fitting and that your line is not pinched anywhere. As an experimental shot maybe try sticking a few inches of hose or better yet a racking cane on the end of the thumb tap to see if it smooths out your flow any at all.

[chalmers]

To thoroughly confuse things, I'll throw my two cents in:
I'm not convinced that the liquid itself is carbed enough, that's why, after the foam subsides, it is totally flat. I'd suggest turning the keg upside down (or put gas in the liquid out side) and listening for bubbles. If you hear some, there is still room for CO2 at your 27 psi setting. Try shaking the crap out of it while hooked up and cold.
Then, just before you want to dispense (for a test), bleed off the excess pressure, and then set it to 12psi and dispense it.
Just hate to hear about your buying a load of stuff when there wasn't a hardware problem to begin with.
This comes from exactly 0 experience with pop, but lots with figuring out foamy/flat beer.

[Paucey]

I tried ordering some bayonettes from McMaster-Carr but they emailed me to say that they couldn't ship to me. Something about export regulations and that they only ship to their already-established Canadian customers now. Does anyone know of any other places to get these bayonettes? Or of anyone that can order from McMaster-Carr that I may be able to order through?

[ratchet]

We do group buys from McMaster Carr, which is the easiest way to get things from them.
I PM'd you a little more detail on this topic.

If you're in a crunch, you can also order through Schooner Industrial in Burnside... although they will likely add a mark-up to the costs.

I have four un-used bayonettes here that you're welcome to have, just buy some on the next group buy and give me four of those to replace these ones.