My Brewing is all Fucked Up.

[LiverDance]

Check the crush and your mill gap, sometimes they come loose.

[bluenose]

Check the crush and your mill gap, sometimes they come loose.

too much or not enough?

[LiverDance]

Check the crush and your mill gap, sometimes they come loose.

too much or not enough?

I'd say not enough if you are missing your targets low. You have to ask yourself what you have been doing different since you were hitting your old consistent numbers and narrow it down from there. Have you changed your water, malt type, equipment, pants...etc

[mr x]

First thing is adjust your efficiency number until it matches your measured og to get your actual efficiency.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[gm-]

I hope Gwyngeez doesn't mind me highjacking this thread, but I've been unable to hit my SG for a while now. I'm consistently coming in lower than target. Where would be a good place to start fixing this?

Using the same brand of grain as before? Fresh grains?

[bluenose]

Using the same brand of grain as before? Fresh grains?

Hmmm, what do you mean by "fresh grains"?

[gm-]

Using the same brand of grain as before? Fresh grains?

Hmmm, what do you mean by "fresh grains"?

Bought fairly recently, not an old bag that you had forgotten about in your damp garage since 2001

I buy my grain crushed, and I notice that if I keep it around for more than 6 months or it starts to loose efficiency a little bit, uncrushed probably lasts longer, but probably has a point where it starts to loose some points.

[bluenose]

Bought fairly recently, not an old bag that you had forgotten about in your damp garage since 2001

I buy my grain crushed, and I notice that if I keep it around for more than 6 months or it starts to loose efficiency a little bit, uncrushed probably lasts longer, but probably has a point where it starts to loose some points.

Clay Davis.jpg

That could be my issue right there... I think my crush is good, I even ran one batch through twice... I'll do as X says and that should take care of my old grain issue. That and I'll be sure to use it up quicker

[GuingesRock]

Thanks Bluenose for joining in. Misery loves company . I hope you get sorted.

I tasted the Bramarillo as I was kegging it and it doesn’t taste promising. I’m beginning to wonder about the chloride/sulphate ratio which was only .46 and that’s supposed to give an unpleasant bitterness. I think Greg said once that’s crap though (the ratio business). I’m beginning to think the whole water chemistry thing is crap. A lot of the studies were not done on real mashes, they were done on substrates, specific starches with specific enzymes, so as to reduce variables and make results more conclusive. I think that’s crap! …sorry I’m just a bit annoyed that I might have made another bad batch.

Also, LD, I think you might be right about Amarillo and Bramling cross not being a good combo. Why did you say that?

I’m going to do what Jimmy and Redoubt said and leave out all this water salt and PH stuff and start over …back where I was.

Has anyone else got into water chemistry and got out again? I read so much theory on it too. At least I now have some practical experience to go with it.

According to the video below PH 5.6 can be fine.

[LiverDance]

I said that because I've brewed with both and based on my experience with them I believe they have somewhat conflicting flavor profiles.To me It didn't seem like a combination that will compliment each other very well.

Also, I go in and out of the water chemistry thing. Sometimes it can hurt the brain it gives you so much to take into consideration. Now I'm basically just adding some calcium chloride to my water to get me to a proper level and that's it.

[jeffsmith]

I keep my water chemistry simple as well. I use Five Stat PH buffer in the mash, and some gypsum in the boil for hoppy beers.

[Tony L]

I keep my water chemistry simple as well. I use Five Stat PH buffer in the mash, and some gypsum in the boil for hoppy beers.

That's about as far as I'm going mucking with water chemistry that I have no clue mucking with also, Jeff.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks

I’ve been watching the video above again. Some notes:

“Malt contains a significant amount of Calcium and Magnesium”, yet when I enter the grain bill in the EZ calculator, the values for Calcium and Magnesium in the "resulting water profile” at the bottom of the spreadsheet do not change! That's a problem.

The high boil PH that results from a high mash PH gives a "rougher" bitterness. That maybe doesn’t affect the late and skimmed FWH additions that I only do. He says that "fermentation is a great leveler of PH" and beers come out nearly the same PH after fermentation. He describes an experiment at the end where a beer that was brewed at a high PH had more flavour and character. Enzymes also prefer a higher PH. The "rougher bitterness" was the only argument in there I could find against PH in the upper part of the range.

[gm-]

If it ain't broken, why fix it?

As I am pretty happy with my brewing, I haven't messed with water chemistry yet except for the occasional small gypsum addition in british bitters and ipas. As for pH I am not even gonna test that, I am sure if I do I will start messing things around and might end up with something that I am not happy with. Sometimes ignorance is a bliss

[GuingesRock]

I’m getting there. I spared you all the details of the rest of my journey into water chemistry (until now). I brewed the old Amarillo galaxy with no salts and no acid and it’s good. Interestingly the mash PH was 5.9 @ 5min, 5.82 @ 15 min and 5.73 at 30 min. All too high in theory. I think I have been brewing to suit my water profile and the high mash PH, by avoiding boil hops and crystal malts. Even more interestingly, the final PH of this beer is 4.44. I brewed another beer with salts and acid malt with a mash PH of 5.5 and the final PH of the beer was higher at 4.48, which proves (to me) Palmer’s statement that “fermentation is a great leveller of PH”. Regardless, I was having problems with oxidation as the beer aged. I’m not sure if this was the PET bottles or, as is said in the literature, mashing at a higher PH makes your beer more prone to oxidation.

I just made what I think is my best beer yet, and the mash PH was brought down to 5.57 with phosphoric acid only and no salts. I think my water profile may be actually perfect for the pale beers that I brew. At least I know how to brew with it and it is known territory for me. On my next brew I plan to take down the mash PH a little further with more phosphoric acid, and bring it down to 5.4. I actually really like the Bramarillo combo, so I’m doing that one over, but this time with no salts.

I’m having an issue with the dry hop part of the beer. That end of things seems to be causing me issues. My beers are usually 2 weeks from grain to glass. I leave my hops in for the ferment and previously I fermented in the kettle with the spent hops for 4 days, then pulled the beer off into kegs for keg conditioning. With the dry hopping, the beer has been sitting in the primary for a full week on top of the spent hops, and it’s possible that’s the root of the “vegetable soup” issue. Anyway, I’m going back to the 4 day primary and then into kegs at room temp for conditioning (1 week). If I dry hop it will have to be the latter 2 days of that 4 days. That conan yeast seems to get its job done pretty swiftly anyway. I love the conan, and I love the Bru’n water program. Both seem to be spot on.

Thanks for all the help.

[GasMD30]

Reading this just reminded me I forgot to dry hop my IPA on Tuesday..... Damnit!

[GuingesRock]

Que Sera, Sera. Might just turn out to be great. That's the thing about brewing. The guy that invented hop bursting, forgot to put in his hops and threw them all in at the last minute.

[Celiacbrew]

With the dry hopping, the beer has been sitting in the primary for a full week on top of the spent hops, and it’s possible that’s the root of the “vegetable soup” issue. Anyway, I’m going back to the 4 day primary and then into kegs at room temp for conditioning (1 week). If I dry hop it will have to be the latter 2 days of that 4 days. That conan yeast seems to get its job done pretty swiftly anyway. I love the conan, and I love the Bru’n water program. Both seem to be spot on.

Thanks for all the help.

I might have something for you to try.
http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com ... 8/myrcene/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This myrcene is the chemical that gives the vegetable soup aroma and the hops you use are all high in it. It is readily boiled off/oxidized into other compounds but sticks around when dry hopped. The kicker is that pellets contribute more to the beer than do leaf hops even though the leaf hops are higher in the chemical. Maybe try rebrewing one of your beers exactly and switch to the leaf hop version of the same variety. If that makes the difference then you could probably figure out which salts/ph things you changed were the ones to avoid. You would just need to see what makes myrcene more or less soluble in wort. If there is a chemist on the board they could probably tell you which properties of water affect myrcene solubility.

[GuingesRock]

With the dry hopping, the beer has been sitting in the primary for a full week on top of the spent hops, and it’s possible that’s the root of the “vegetable soup” issue. Anyway, I’m going back to the 4 day primary and then into kegs at room temp for conditioning (1 week). If I dry hop it will have to be the latter 2 days of that 4 days. That conan yeast seems to get its job done pretty swiftly anyway. I love the conan, and I love the Bru’n water program. Both seem to be spot on.

Thanks for all the help.

I might have something for you to try.
http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com ... 8/myrcene/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This myrcene is the chemical that gives the vegetable soup aroma and the hops you use are all high in it. It is readily boiled off/oxidized into other compounds but sticks around when dry hopped. The kicker is that pellets contribute more to the beer than do leaf hops even though the leaf hops are higher in the chemical. Maybe try rebrewing one of your beers exactly and switch to the leaf hop version of the same variety. If that makes the difference then you could probably figure out which salts/ph things you changed were the ones to avoid. You would just need to see what makes myrcene more or less soluble in wort. If there is a chemist on the board they could probably tell you which properties of water affect myrcene solubility.

That's very useful information. Thank you. It's quite possible that changing the chemistry of my water brought out different aspects of my hops that were less palatable, with the brewing methods that I use. First step is to try dry hopping again without adding salts. I think that might be it. I'll try it and see.

Thanks again.

[GuingesRock]

One of the judges was more specific and mentioned "tomato soup aroma". Tomatoes have mycrene in them. Amarillo, the main hop in that beer, is very high in mycrene.

Myrcene yields flavors that were not traditionally considered desirable by European brewers, and noble hops are very low in myrcene. However, many American hop varieties are very high in myrcene; it makes up up to 60% of total oil in Cascade and up to 70% in Amarillo. Also found in some citrus fruits, myrcene lends American hops many of their distinctive flavors.

When added late in, or after, the boil, myrcene adds the intense, pungent aroma associated with American dry-hopped beers. When boiled for longer periods, it yields the characteristic citrus and pine aromas of American craft beer.

[GuingesRock]

Getting some more clues. Two score sheets came back from the beer I sent to the Aurora Comp. Both judges said "cheesey flavour caused by old hops". I had just bought the hops and kept them in the freezer. There are so many possible variables, when something isn't quite right. I think the score sheets help. It's like ordering a plain x-ray on your beer, not an MRI or anything, just a blurry old x-ray. They were citra hops.

Did anyone else get that comment?

cheesy: A cheeselike off flavor caused by old hops.
http://draftmag.com/offflavors/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mr x]

My experience is that I've used cheesy hops in a stout, and the flavour did not carry over. That's a beer with not much late additions mind you, and a heavy malt flavour compared to a pale ale. The hops i had were incredibly cheesy, impossible to miss when i brought them out.