Brewing hoppy beers

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darciandjenn
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Brewing hoppy beers

Post by darciandjenn » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:34 am

So we've been brewing All Grain for about six months now and we've yet to brew a hoppy beer that comes out exactly like we want it. It seems like the hop flavours are always muted and dull. Any style that relies less heavily on hops has been coming out great.

What I'm wondering is what you guys are doing to make sure your hops really shine?

Number one on my list is to acquire fresher hops. We've been buying most of our ingredients through Nobel Grape and their hops are definitely not stored optimally. So that's an easy fix. But for the last pale ale we brewed, the hops were (supposedly) right out of a fresh bag and the beer is still lacking that explosive hop characteristic we're craving!

I'm thinking water adjustments are the next course of action. What do you guys shoot for, adjustment wise? This is a totally new topic for us... We're on the Pockwock water supply, FYI.

Finally, I'm curious why we're really only having this problem now... is it possible that brewing with extract would have somehow upped the sulfate levels enough to help our hops come through? Or has the hop quality gotten worse at Nobel Grape? Or are we just more critical of our beer than ever?

Thanks!

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by dean2k » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:45 am

Maybe post a recipe example?
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:53 am

fresh hops
water profile suited for hoppy beers
small bittering charge at 60 then lots of late hop additions (15min-Flameout)
Whirlpooling with lots of hops (different temps and times)
Big dry hops

if you are brewing extract recipes...are you boiling full volume for 60min? if not you should IMO

and start buying hops by the pound from everwood...hoppy beers use alot of hops
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by darciandjenn » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:58 am

This was our last IPA. It was ok but not great. Thought we should have got a lot more punch out of the hops:

Est Original Gravity: 1.066 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.8 %
Bitterness: 83.1 IBUs
Est Color: 6.7 SRM

5758.76 g 2-Row Brewers (1.8 SRM) Grain 1 85.0 %
746.02 g Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 11.0 %
266.44 g Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.9 %
7.76 g Magnum [13.50 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 4 11.9 IBUs
62.10 g Amarillo [8.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min Hop 5 15.5 IBUs
62.10 g Citra [12.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min Hop 6 24.8 IBUs
31.05 g Centennial [8.80 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min Hop 7 8.5 IBUs
30.00 g Falconer's Flight [11.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min Hop 8 10.3 IBUs
30.00 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 20.0 min Hop 9 12.2 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 10 -
42.52 g Amarillo [8.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
42.52 g Citra [12.80 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
42.52 g Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days Hop 13 0.0 IBUs

Mashed at 66 C for 60 minutes with a batch sparge

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:02 am

recipe looks good to me

how are the hops you are buying handled in store? just in a plastic container with a lid? I find they get funky if stored that way...fast
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by GuingesRock » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:12 am

This: http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and dry hop for 3 days.

N2 sealed Hop Union hops.
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by darciandjenn » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:03 am

Yeah the NG hops are just stored in plastic deli containers in the fridge. We won't be sourcing our hops there any more!

I'm curious about water adjustments. When you started doing this, did you notice an immediate impact on your beer? I find the whole thing rather overwhelming and I'd love a quick and dirty guide to it.

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by KB1138 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:13 am

darciandjenn wrote: I'd love a quick and dirty guide to it.

If only such a thing going existed for water chemistry. Simplest answer for you is to make sure you have a lot more sulphates than chloride
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by GuingesRock » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:15 am

I didn't find the chemistry made a big difference with that but here's your quick and dirty guide, written, in my opinion, by the best beer water chemistry expert there is. He's actually a water engineer and not just a beer book writer and he was the editor for the water book: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by dean2k » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:30 am

The only thing I personally do differently when brewing a big hop flavour beer is add my late additions so sooner than 10 minutes rather than 20. But one would think the dry hops would have had you covered.
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:29 pm

darciandjenn wrote:Yeah the NG hops are just stored in plastic deli containers in the fridge. We won't be sourcing our hops there any more!

I'm curious about water adjustments. When you started doing this, did you notice an immediate impact on your beer? I find the whole thing rather overwhelming and I'd love a quick and dirty guide to it.

yes...after we started with RO water (and added salts) we won 3 medals and BOS in the 2015 Big Spruce comp. You can start with Gordon Strong's water adjustments...He uses RO water and adds 5grams of Calcium Chloride (per 5gal of mash water) and enough Phosphoric acid to reduce the mash ph to 5.5. For bitter beers it sounds he will add some gypsum.

For dark or crystal grains he adds them after the mash and before recirculation so he doesn't have to add anything to raise the mash.

I use this calculator ...add my total water (I do full volume mashes)...add your grain bill ...add your salts and acids ...it will give you the Sulfate to Chloride Ratio and the PH...you can adjust from there...with my double IPA i use a 3:1 Sulfate to Chloride Ratio
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by GuingesRock » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:48 pm

Justin - But before you used RO water you were trying to use conditioned water weren't you? Or am I thinking of someone else? Water conditioned water isn't much good for beer.
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:49 pm

GuingesRock wrote:Justin - But before you used RO water you were trying to use conditioned water weren't you? Or am I thinking of someone else? Water conditioned water isn't much good for beer.
correct...it was softened water...big improvement going to ro
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by LiverDance » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:26 am

It's interesting that you say you are not getting the flavor that you want from the hops but you have no real flavoring additions. The steep/whirlpool will get you some flavor in there but mostly aromas which is also what you want. try adding some 20 min and under additions to boost the flavors you are looking for. I would also buy a carbon water filter (everwood) to help out your water as I believe you are in the same end of town as myself and we get that geosmin flavor showing up every now and then and the filter helps with that. water adjustments are also helpful as they will help to balance and round out the flavors you are looking for.
"Twenty years ago — a time, by the way, that hops such as Simcoe and Citra were already being developed, but weren’t about to find immediate popularity — there wasn’t a brewer on earth who would have gone to the annual Hop Growers of American convention and said, “I’m going to have a beer that we make 4,000 barrels of, one time a year. It flies off the shelf at damn near $20 a six-pack, and you know what it smells like? It smells like your cat ate your weed and then pissed in the Christmas tree.” - Bell’s Brewery Director of Operations John Mallet on the scent of their popular Hopslam.

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by darciandjenn » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:52 am

Hey thanks everyone for the replies! Lots to think about for sure :)

We have played around with doing flavour additions at different times, I just posted one recent recipe. We did this same recipe back in 2015 when we were doing partial mashes (half the 2 row was replaced with an appropriate amount of DME) and it was fantastic. I wonder if that amount of DME would help make up for something our water is lacking...

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:59 am

I've gotten some big flavors out of whirlpool only hopping...60min with 5.5oz mosaic at 200f ...then 6.5 oz for 60min at 140f.
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by LiverDance » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:12 pm

jacinthebox wrote:I've gotten some big flavors out of whirlpool only hopping...60min with 5.5oz mosaic at 200f ...then 6.5 oz for 60min at 140f.

I can see getting lots of flavor from a 60 min rest/whirlpool but a lot less from the 20 they are doing; I guess they could also extend their steep time.
"Twenty years ago — a time, by the way, that hops such as Simcoe and Citra were already being developed, but weren’t about to find immediate popularity — there wasn’t a brewer on earth who would have gone to the annual Hop Growers of American convention and said, “I’m going to have a beer that we make 4,000 barrels of, one time a year. It flies off the shelf at damn near $20 a six-pack, and you know what it smells like? It smells like your cat ate your weed and then pissed in the Christmas tree.” - Bell’s Brewery Director of Operations John Mallet on the scent of their popular Hopslam.

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:58 pm

LiverDance wrote:
jacinthebox wrote:I've gotten some big flavors out of whirlpool only hopping...60min with 5.5oz mosaic at 200f ...then 6.5 oz for 60min at 140f.

I can see getting lots of flavor from a 60 min rest/whirlpool but a lot less from the 20 they are doing; I guess they could also extend their steep time.
I agree
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by ivorm » Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:02 pm

jacinthebox wrote:I've gotten some big flavors out of whirlpool only hopping...60min with 5.5oz mosaic at 200f ...then 6.5 oz for 60min at 140f.
Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you hold the wort at 200f, add hops and whirlpool for 60 minutes then repeat the process with another hop addition at 140f?

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:06 pm

Yeah I chill down to 200f post boil. Start my whirlpool add my hops and cover..let it go for 60min. It may drop down to 180f or 190f over that hour. If it drops below 180f I'll fire it up to gently raise the temp.
I keep the coil in a bucket of starsan during this time.
After an hour I drop the coil in and chill to 140f. Remove coil and add more hops. Cover again a day let whirlpool for another 60min.
After that chill down to your pitch temp

Beersmith gives u the Ibu for whirlpool (212f). So going down below that will reduce bitterness so u may want to bump it up. The 140f addition doesn't give any ibu
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:14 pm

From Gordon Strong
Three temperature profiles that seem to be popular among homebrewers are just off boil range 190–212 °F (88–100 °C), the sub-isomerization range 160–170 °F (71–77 °C), and a tepid hop stand range 140–150 °F (60–66 °C). The 190–212 °F (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. Some homebrewers will keep their kettle burner on low to keep the temperature of the wort elevated above 200 °F (93 °C) during their extended hop stands which would better emulate the conditions in commercial whirlpools. A hop stand in the 160–170 °F (71–77 °C) range will basically shut down the alpha acid isomerization reaction and the lower temperatures will reduce the vaporization of the essential oils. Homebrewers can use their wort chillers to bring the wort down to this range before adding the knockout hops or they can add a second dose of knockout hops. The 140–150 °F (60–66 °C) range will once again reduce vaporization of the low flashpoint oils, but may take longer to get the same amount of essential oils extracted."
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by ivorm » Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:32 pm

jacinthebox wrote:Yeah I chill down to 200f post boil. Start my whirlpool add my hops and cover..let it go for 60min. It may drop down to 180f or 190f over that hour. If it drops below 180f I'll fire it up to gently raise the temp.
I keep the coil in a bucket of starsan during this time.
After an hour I drop the coil in and chill to 140f. Remove coil and add more hops. Cover again a day let whirlpool for another 60min.
After that chill down to your pitch temp

Beersmith gives u the Ibu for whirlpool (212f). So going down below that will reduce bitterness so u may want to bump it up. The 140f addition doesn't give any ibu
jacinthebox wrote:From Gordon Strong
Three temperature profiles ... of the low flashpoint oils, but may take longer to get the same amount of essential oils extracted."
Great! Thanks for the explanation!

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:54 pm

Np ...good luck
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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by robcoombs » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:54 pm

jacinthebox wrote:I've gotten some big flavors out of whirlpool only hopping...60min with 5.5oz mosaic at 200f ...then 6.5 oz for 60min at 140f.
That sounds fucking delicious!

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Re: Brewing hoppy beers

Post by jacinthebox » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:57 pm

robcoombs wrote:
jacinthebox wrote:I've gotten some big flavors out of whirlpool only hopping...60min with 5.5oz mosaic at 200f ...then 6.5 oz for 60min at 140f.
That sounds fucking delicious!

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You may have the opportunity to try it. ...lol...stay tuned
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