Brewing Burnout - Help!

[mcgster]

I think you are completely missing my point. BCS is a starting point for people to brew, no one is saying brew every recipe directly off of it, i have read it several times and only brewed 2 or 3 recipes out of it when i first started brewing. Getting your information from BCS is no different at all then what you are suggesting, talking to people, reading BYO, etc.. is no different from using BCS as a starting point. Other than the fact that you seem to not like BCS at all, i don't see how it differs from reading an article on BYO.

[GuingesRock]

I don't like that people brew from BCS, they are being cheated out of expressing their own creativity and individuality. Expressing creativity and individuality is where the greatest rewards in this hobby lie.

[mcgster]

They aren't being cheated out of anything , you are learning a skill to be creative with.


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[GuingesRock]

You are learning nothing, other than how to be a sheep! Baaaa

[mcgster]

No more than reading from a BYO article, it's just your preference not to use it. That doesn't mean people who do are sheep. Everyone learns in their own way and each Brewer should learn in a way that increases their enjoyment of the hobby. I don't judge anyone for learning the hobby how they want to, after all it's their choice.


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[Keith]

They aren't being cheated out of anything , you are learning a skill to be creative with.


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Those recipes help build a great foundation to become comfortable with the process and ingredients. It's why it's one of the goto books for new brewers getting into the hobby.

[GuingesRock]

No more than reading from a BYO article, it's just your preference not to use it. That doesn't mean people who do are sheep. Everyone learns in their own way and each Brewer should learn in a way that increases their enjoyment of the hobby. I don't judge anyone for learning the hobby how they want to, after all it's their choice.


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I wasn't judging people, was recommending a different path, and one that might lead to better enjoyment and fulfillment with this brewing hobby. Who doesn't want to have an opportunity to express themselves (and not express someone else) and be creative ????????

[GuingesRock]

They aren't being cheated out of anything , you are learning a skill to be creative with.


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Those recipes help build a great foundation to become comfortable with the process and ingredients. It's why it's one of the goto books for new brewers getting into the hobby.

I don't like those recipes Keith ... too much crystal

[Jimmy]

No more than reading from a BYO article, it's just your preference not to use it. That doesn't mean people who do are sheep. Everyone learns in their own way and each Brewer should learn in a way that increases their enjoyment of the hobby. I don't judge anyone for learning the hobby how they want to, after all it's their choice.


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I wasn't judging people, was recommending a different path, and one that might lead to better enjoyment and fulfillment with this brewing hobby. Who doesn't want to have an opportunity to express themselves (and not express someone else) and be creative ????????

People still get to be create recipes, but don't have to waste their time brewing undrinkable beer because they were being a "sheep" as you call it.

It's no different than cooking..you've got to learn somewhere. Most of your food recipes that you make are likely some variation that's been passed down generation to generation (or a recipe you googled). You try the recipe, pick something out that you think could be adjusted to improve, and you make the changes the next time you cook. It's no different with beer.

BCS is a great resource for new AND experienced brewers. If you've never brewed a particular style, it's a great starting point that will get you headed in the right direction.

[Jimmy]

They aren't being cheated out of anything , you are learning a skill to be creative with.


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Those recipes help build a great foundation to become comfortable with the process and ingredients. It's why it's one of the goto books for new brewers getting into the hobby.

I don't like those recipes Keith ... too much crystal

And that there is exactly something someone could learn from brewing a recipe from BCS. Oh, this IPA isn't really to the style that I like - maybe I should cut back on the crystal. It really comes down to personal preference for every single beer that we brew. Someone may LOVE the BCS IPA, others may not...but there's no denying it's a good place to start for someone who's never brewed an IPA before.

BJCP, BYO, Bru N Water, UK/German/European brewers and every other source you quote won't be able to tell YOU what YOU like to drink for an IPA.

[GuingesRock]

Jimmy, I really think a brewer should chuck all that stuff out, along with Palmer's "How To Brew" which in places is complete nonsense, learn what you can about beer, and start from scratch, and own your beer ...make it YOUR beer ...for better or for worse. That's where progress is made. There's no progress in brewing someone else's beer ...that's actually going backwards. Be critical to the extreme, and above all, be your own critic.

[Jimmy]

Jimmy, I really think a brewer should chuck all that stuff out, along with Palmer's "How To Brew" which in places is complete nonsense, learn what you can about beer, and start from scratch, and own your beer ...make it YOUR beer ...for better or for worse. That's where progress is made. There's no progress in brewing someone else's beer ...that's actually going backwards. Be critical to the extreme, and above all, be your own critic.

So do you look at other recipes in a particular style when formulating your recipes?

[GuingesRock]

Jimmy, I really think a brewer should chuck all that stuff out, along with Palmer's "How To Brew" which in places is complete nonsense, learn what you can about beer, and start from scratch, and own your beer ...make it YOUR beer ...for better or for worse. That's where progress is made. There's no progress in brewing someone else's beer ...that's actually going backwards. Be critical to the extreme, and above all, be your own critic.

So do you look at other recipes in a particular style when formulating your recipes?

I haven't been. I'm a bit belligerent, and arrogant, with regard to that (Nash's Fathom recipe, a beer I really liked, was forgotten in my wallet) and I have an aversion to looking at other people's recipes, and a belief that I know best (obviously I don't, but strive towards that) Obnoxious trait I know. I am not so arrogant, however, that I don't respect the style guidelines, and I love to learn what I can from experienced brewers. I really like learning the history of beer, and also, as I said, I like visiting breweries, here, and in Europe where they have been brewing through the ages. I have a hunger for that stuff.

[GuingesRock]

Maybe it's not that "I know best," maybe, I don't want to dance to anyone else's tune ... That's where I am at.

[CorneliusAlphonse]

i think no one can call themselves a brewer until theyve brewed every recipe that has ever won an award. there are no real brewers in the brewnosers

[CorneliusAlphonse]

no true brewer

[jacinthebox]

I think brewers should brew inspired...if that's from a book, other recipes, or vision from the gods.
Where other people get inspiration is personal....and I am not an expert in any of the styles or non styles...so I can't say what is the best approach to brewing these beers. I shall not judge.

Saying that...mark has a shit ton of brewerly...so I always listen to his advice...as I do with all of the brewnoser elders.

Brewing is an art...but you still should know some of the science behind it as well as the history (interesting if nothing else)

[amartin]

Eh, I can sympathize with what Mark is saying. I don't use recipes other people's recipes either, and don't own BCS. I can buy other people's beer at the store. But I will look at other recipes when brewing something I haven't made before.

For example, I'm planning on brewing a brown porter next month. I've made it before, but not in the last three or four years, so I'll look at the BJCP guidelines for the style and get an idea of what flavours I want and how to get them. However, I'll also look at the recipe for Fuller's London Porter that BYO posted a while back. If I'm ambitious enough, I'll go buy a can, drink it, and think, what do I like about this, what don't I like, and what would I change? Maybe Propeller Porter too. I'll make a recipe around what I want, and make compromises for what ingredients are available and in my basement at the moment. It's already going to be different from either Fuller's or Propeller because I have a West Yorkshire ale yeast on the go that I've been happy with, that neither of them use. I also picked up a bag of Franco Belges coffee kiln malt that I thought would be a nice addition.

Next time I make a bitter though, or an IPA, I'm not going to go through all of that. I've made them both plenty of times, and I'll use previous batches as a starting point, adjusting for changes I want to see and what I have on hand.

[Halifax_Jeff]

Next time I make a bitter though, or an IPA, I'm not going to go through all of that. I've made them both plenty of times, and I'll use previous batches as a starting point, adjusting for changes I want to see and what I have on hand.

I think that's why a lot of new brewers (me included) will use BCS. I haven't brewed any style many times and most beers I brew are the first crack at a new style. I'm not wasting my time on a botched recipe I made myself so I can feel creative. I'll do that once I get a handle on different ingredients and styles.

[mcgster]

I'm certain that everyone, G-rock included, has brewed using someone else's recipe or a kit at some point in their life, as they should.

I'm sure you can learn how to speak Spanish by going to Spain and sitting in a coffee shop for 10 years listening to other people talk but its probably easier to pick up a spanish - english dictionary to get you started.

[GuingesRock]

I think when you start out, you get to know some things you like. You'll make a good beer and will become attached to the ingredients. Like yeast for example. If I can, I'll use Conan or West Yorkshire. If it is something like a Tripel, I'll Google and see what yeast to use, or just look at the online stores and the yeast names. When I was making the Helles, I ordered a yeast that was called "Helles Yeast" it can be that simple. I always use MO as a base for ales, and floor malted Bohemian pils for lagers. I will always put Munich 11 in my ales, that's a must for me, and I like to throw a few pounds of pils in with my IPAs (I don't think you'll see that in a recipe very often if at all). If I want a red colour, I will add a few ounces of roasted barley without even considering any other option. It's something I tried once and it worked, so why look for anything else? I'll read up on hop descriptions and will use them if I like the sound of them. I discovered Australian hops that way. I read the description for Galaxy and thought WOW. Soon after that it became one of my favorites. Then I made a blonde called G'Day and put an assortment of Australian hops in that one. G'Day has several golds. I always have to put a lot of late hops in my beer. I often get penalized for that at competitions with comments like "good beer but too hoppy for style". It's very hard to go wrong with hops. Actually it's hard to go wrong with any of it. It's easy to make a good beer whatever you do, providing you have your technique right and good ingredients. Adam Olsen said on Twitter that making good beer takes "care and quality ingredients". I thought that was a good quote, and I think that's all it really does take. It isn't a matter of getting exactly the correct number of ounces of this or that malt, or 'hitting" gravities.

[GuingesRock]

Back to burnout. I posted a link to this thread on Twitter and one of the Brewers asked me if I thought Brewer Burnout is caused by the volume needed to compete nationally.

My answer ...a resounding YES!!!!!!!!!

[Jimmy]

Back to burnout. I posted a link to this thread on Twitter and one of the Brewers asked me if I thought Brewer Burnout is caused by the volume needed to compete nationally.

My answer ...a resounding YES!!!!!!!!!

100% agree. It goes back to my comments (and most other comments in this thread), suggesting that you brew what you WANT to brew, not what you NEED to brew to get another medal.

[GuingesRock]

Yes, good point, but I did also want to become competent at brewing different styles and increase my repertoire. Bit of a crash course though.

[mumblecrunch]

You have to assert yourself in your brewing and express your individuality. That's the kick of it. That's why I hate books such as "Brewing Classic Styles" and "Modern Homebrew Recipes". They kill originality and progress in brewing. The whole world is brewing beer from BCS (not just Canada, I was on an Australian site and they were all doing that). Books such as "Designing Great Beers" however, and also this one: http://www.amazon.ca/Home-Brewing-Beers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 1453851496 (a great beginners book) point people in the direction of designing their own beers, developing a brewing style and advancing craft brewing by people enjoying using their imagination and creativity. There's no advantage at all to being a sheep and brewing someone else's beers the whole world over.

To use one of your own favorite phrases, in my opinion, telling folks they're sheep for using existing recipes is "harmful to craft beer". You're telling people that the way they do things isn't good enough because it doesn't meet your definition of what craft beer should be. And how ironic that one of your targets of scorn is the recipes of BCS, largely developed by Jamil Zainasheff as he progressed in the hobby through winning the Ninkasi Award ("Brewer of the Year") to opening his own brewery.

Have you ever had a Caesar salad? Pretty basic recipe. Eggs, garlic, mustard, oil, vinegar, Worcestershire sauce, salt and pepper, bread, bacon, lettuce and parmesan reggiano. But I'm not sure I've ever had two Caesar salads that have tasted the same. Some folks have different technique. Some have access to different equipment. Some alter amounts or add other ingredients. They're all "Caesar salad". But they're all different.

I contend that recipes are one of the least important aspects of brewing. Further, I'm pretty sure if I did the right search on this forum I'd be able to quote you saying that yourself. If you gave the same recipe to 20 brewers on this board and had them meet up 2 months later with the beer they made from that recipe, I think you'd find more tasted different than the same.

And you also seem to be suggesting that recipe innovation is somehow fundamental or primal. Is the recipe the only way to be original in brewing? I would hope not. You can innovate with technique (for instance, fermenting in your kettle), or equipment (like say, integrating a coil for temperature control during fermentation). Or ingredients (e.g,. avoiding crystal or using maris otter as your only pale malt). Any of those sound familiar? And if innovation is the only way forward we should all sell all our gear and buy Braumeisters or Grainfathers or that wicked thing Jimmy's got. Until the next innovation comes out and then we all need to get that.

You're making a very similar argument to the one that goes, "Person A is greater/more authentic than Person B because he/she writes his/her own music and/or plays his/her own instruments." Being a great performer has fuck all to do with being able to write a great tune or play an instrument. Frank Sinatra didn't write much of anything that anyone can name. He could probably plunk out a tune on a couple of different instruments but he was hardly accomplished as a player. But he's one of the greatest and most beloved performers of all time. And "original" is still a term that people use to describe him.

I firmly believe it is possible for someone to be a great brewer without writing a single original recipe or mastering the most complex brewing system. Because there's more to being a brewer than recipes and techniques. Being a brewer is about making beer that makes someone happy. If your only intended audience is yourself, that's going to be easier than if you're trying to win competitions around North America and probably a lot easier than selling hectoliters of beer in Malaysia. Telling people that their beer isn't good enough because they're not constantly innovating and writing their own recipes is elitist bullshit. Your goals for brewing are not my goals. And I take issue with you suggesting that they should be.