Mash PH

[GuingesRock]

I’ve been doing an Amarillo Galaxy APA mash this morning with naked Wolfville water (no salts or PH adjustment).

Calcium 48.34, Magnesium 8.24, Sodium 18.72, Chloride 88, Sulphate 12, CaCo3 Alkalinity 47.

I have brewed the exact same beer before and it was reviewed favorably by the judges at the Big Spruce comp. I know have a PH meter and I checked the PH throughout the mash to see what goes on in this mash. The brew has base malts only (MO, Munich and a little cara-pils). As you can see the PH is quite high. I’d be worried, except that the beer has turned out well before. For example Jeff Pinhey gave ma 37 points and said “If this was a pale ale competition would score higher, nice balance, very drinkable, well made, a session IPA”. Without the experience of having had the beer judged I’d be very worried about a PH of 5.72 (which is BTW exactly what the attached EZ calculator predicted). There’s a caveat though …I don’t do much in the way of boil hops. I skim off FWH hops early boil and then do late hops. A high PH could in theory affect the bitterness of boil hops.

I read the books. Palmer says, a high boil PH that results from a high mash PH gives a "rougher" bitterness. He says that "fermentation is a great leveler of PH" and beers come out nearly the same PH after fermentation. He describes an experiment at the end of his video where a beer that was brewed at a high PH had more flavour and character. Enzymes also prefer a higher PH. He says there is no ideal mash PH but rather there is a range (5.2 - 5.6), and the only way to find out what PH is best for your beer is by trial and error.

What experiences has everyone had with PH? That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it …for now.

@ 5 minutes PH = 5.9
@ 15 minutes PH = 5.82
@ 30 minutes PH = 5.73
@ 45 minutes PH = 5.72
@ 90 minutes PH = 5.7

[mr x]

My story is I did initial measurements at my house, strictly for oversparging to a pH over 6. When I found I couldn't do that, I gave away the pH meter.

[NASH]

Great beer can only be made at proper ph levels with proper water treatment. Good beer can be made with almost anything.

Yeast is a stronger factor in final beer PH. But it's not all. If you go in with high ph it will finish higher as well. This can leave you with less flavourful brew and a shortened shelf life among other things.

At the end of the day the only thing that matters to the homebrewer is that you're happy with your beer. Personally, I'd prefer my beer to be a 47 rather than 37. And so, I shall continue monitoring and treating

[redoubt]

I've been doing some reading of Palmer and others on water chemistry before I futz with my own water profile. So far, I've only made calcium chloride and gypsum additions (that Jeff thought were laughable but what the heck ) because I want to know what I'm doing when I make changes. A few thoughts on this and other things you've posted on the topic of water chem, Mark.

First, although it may be the case that there's an range of acceptable pHs from 5-6, I didn't get from Palmer that there isn't an ideal pH. There's that range and the best target mash pH depends on what beer you're brewing. For most, as I understand it, that's around 5.2-5.4.

Second, does it really make sense to talk about enzymes preferring a higher pH? Not all of them do. Beta amylase, for example, does very poorly at a pH of 6. I assume that, although a pH of 5.7-5.8 is not the worst for beta amylase, it's activity in the mash will likely be somewhat inhibited -- especially in the first 1/2 hour, when some of the most important parts of conversion are happening.

Third, I'm not altogether clear about why fermentation leveling pH matters. All the pre-fermentation stuff that we intrepid brewers are in charge of depends on acheiving a certain pH in the mash which, in turn, sets the pH for later in the process. A lot of flavour stuff depends on this pre-fermentation pH level. Does the pH of the finished beer really matter that much?

Fourth, mash pH ain't everything. If mash pH is all we're concerned about as brewers, we could stick in some 5-star pH buffer to set the mash pH to 5.2 and phone in the rest. The calcium, magnesium, etc. additions all have significant impacts on flavour as well as other things. Getting your pH in line is one thing, but water treatment involves a whole lot more.

I get your frustration with water chemistry -- it seems daunting at best, to me -- and with the fact that your beer isn't turning out as well as it was before. I think it's a bit unfair to pin the whole thing on water chem, though, and I don't think it's altogether fair to dismiss the whole thing as "crap". Professional brewers tinker with this stuff for a reason.

I'm not trying to pick fights or anything (I'm tired and busy and worry that I might come off that way in typing!), I just think that there's more to it than this and that it's worth a few more tries after you have the rest of your new system and new processes dialed in. Worth a continued discussion, anyway, though, hey?


Kirsten

[Tony L]

Mark, I don't see where you say when you are doing the testing regarding temperature. For instance are you testing the pH of the mash at mash temps or are you cooling the sample down to room temp where you should be taking the pH readings

[GuingesRock]

Hi Kirsten,

My frustration is that water chemistry seems to me like a very poor science at the moment. Having an understanding of water, I think is a good thing. Nash’s comment is a good one. I had some experience that I thought might be useful, and also by posting I get the benefit of the experience of other brewers.

Nash himself said brewing was an art and probably always will be. I think a lot of the science is faulty (crap). I’d rather go by experience. Greg’s comment is based on Experience which makes it valuable to me. Most of brewing is experience handed down.

I’d be very interested in your journey and how your research improves your beer. I think the best kind of research would be to spend a day with an experienced brewer who makes good beer. This kind of quote interests me “Pilsen - The lack of sulfate provides for a mellow hop bitterness that does not overpower the soft maltiness; noble hop aroma is emphasized.” It interests me because on the first few attempts at adding salts I added gypsum and possibly took away an advantage from my water. I had been used to a different kind of flavour from my hops. My water is also very low in sulphates.

“Enzymes prefer a higher PH” is a direct quote from Palmer in his video. He’s talking about the higher end of the range I think.

All I can say is you have your water, you brew with it a certain way and make beer that you like, you change your water based on some theory or other and there’s a chance you may not be happy with the result. It happened to me. It was good experience though for me, and as time goes on I will probably cautiously get back into it. Lowering the PH a bit, will probably be first on the agenda. I wasn’t trying to say that PH wasn’t important.

Here’s an EXCELLENT link on PH: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph ... ts_brewing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And a chart from that page.

[AllanMar]

@ 5 minutes PH = 5.9
@ 15 minutes PH = 5.82
@ 30 minutes PH = 5.73
@ 45 minutes PH = 5.72
@ 90 minutes PH = 5.7

Did you cool the sample before measuring? Even though my meter is supposed to be temperature compensating, I find the meter is usually .1 higher when you let the sample cool before testing (which I believe to be the more accurate). I always shoot for the low end (5.2) when measuring directly in the mash as a result.

[GuingesRock]

Yes I had a shallow ice bath in a roasting pan, stirred the mash, then dipped in a coffee mug collecting about 1" in the cup, put that in the water tray until at room temp, then measured the PH. I rinsed the electrode under the tap and calibrated the meter before checking each sample. I used a fresh, clean, dry coffee mug from the cupboard for each sample. I thought it was interesting how the PH dropped as time went on. Have you tried checking throughout the mash?

[Ladd]

I am sure this has been covered but just wanted to check since its not mentioned in your initial post. Are you doing a two point calibration of the meter with calibration buffers before using it? One above and one below what you are measuring? i.e. buffers pH 4.0 and pH 7.0

[GuingesRock]

I am sure this has been covered but just wanted to check since its not mentioned in your initial post. Are you doing a two point calibration of the meter with calibration buffers before using it? One above and one below what you are measuring? i.e. buffers pH 4.0 and pH 7.0

Yes, I did exactly that. I did that before each test.

[Ladd]

. I rinsed the electrode under the tap and calibrated the meter before checking each sample.

haha you posted the answer while I was typing... Are you doing a two point calibration with buffers that are above and below the target measurement?

[GuingesRock]

we posted at the same time again

[Ladd]

I am sure this has been covered but just wanted to check since its not mentioned in your initial post. Are you doing a two point calibration of the meter with calibration buffers before using it? One above and one below what you are measuring? i.e. buffers pH 4.0 and pH 7.0

Yes, I did exactly that. I did that before each test.

hahaha we got to stop posting at the same time!

[AllanMar]

Yes I had a shallow ice bath in a roasting pan, stirred the mash, then dipped in a coffee mug collecting about 1" in the cup, put that in the water tray until at room temp, then measured the PH. I rinsed the electrode under the tap and calibrated the meter before checking each sample. I used a fresh, clean, dry coffee mug from the cupboard for each sample. I thought it was interesting how the PH dropped as time went on. Have you tried checking throughout the mash?

Yes and no. I typically check around 5-10mins after grain in and with water additions I'm usually at around 5.5-5.4 (measured directly in mash), if its a darker beer i'm usually a bit lower. I then use Lactic acid (starting to use phosphoric instead lately) to tweak it down, so I end up measuring a few more times over the next 20-30mins. But it would be falling due to the acid also, so its hard to say. Once I hit ~5.2 i've measured at the end of mash before and it's usually pretty close to that still.

I've had kind of the opposite experience as you, don't have a real great understanding of water chemistry part of brewing either but just tried something common/basic and it's worked out well so I've kept with it. I use the Elec Brewery's "Ideal Pale Ale" water profile for most beers.

I've found my Mash EFF takes a decent jump when I lower the pH as well.

[GuingesRock]

That's interesting. Thanks for the detailed info.

Based in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principal, I'm beginning to think the best thing for me to try would be to bring down PH a bit with phosphoric acid. It's what the professionals use and it is present in a normal mash any way. That way I can keep the salt profile I'm used to brewing with, at least for now any way. Is that a fair assumption?

I don't know where to get phosphoric acid, how to use it, when to add it, how much etc.

Edit: Just found one of Greg's posts ... How do you recommend using it Greg please? Also I see that Canadian Home Brew Supplies stock it.

Bebbington Industries in Burnside sells Phosphoric, not sure if they sell to individuals or not. For brews across the board, Phosphoric is generally used since it has very little flavour impact compared to lactic, which tastes like..... lacto

In quantities used to drive PH I'm not sure it really makes much if any difference though

From: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph ... ts_brewing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A commonly accepted optimal range for mash pH is 5.2 - 5.7 with 5.5 being optimal for starch conversion activity but many authors report wort and beer quality benefits if the pH is lowered into the 5.2 - 5.4 range [Kunze, 2007][Narziss, 2005]. Kunze in particular lists the following benefits for a mash pH as low as 5.2. Since it is a good and fairly comprehensive list I cited it here. Some of these benefits listed will be explained in the following sections [Kunze, 2007]:
## The enzymatic activity in the mash is increased as all important enzymes get activated. (except for alpha amylase which starts to suffer at a pH below 5.6)
## More zinc, an essential yeast nutrient, goes into solution
## The extract yield (efficiency) is improved
## The protein coagulation and precipitation is improved (improved break formation)
## The redox potential is improved which results in a lower susceptibility to oxygen.
## The run-off speed is improved
## The color increase during the wort boil is reduced
## Better trub precipitation and faster pH drop lead to faster fermentation and greater attenuation of the beer.
## Lover viscosity improves filterability
## The taste of the beer is more rounded, fuller and softer. The beer is crisper, more fresh and shows more character.
## The hop bitterness is more pleasant and doesn't linger
## The foam is more stable and denser
## The color of the beer is lighter
## Mash oxidation is reduced since the main culprit, the lipoxigenase enzyme, doesn't work well at low mash pH conditions
## Haze stability is improved
## Beer digestion is stimulated. This is a positive effect of the lactic acid
## Susceptibility to microbial spoilage is reduced through ## Lower beer pH: beer spoilage organism don't grow below a pH of 4.4
## Higher attenuation

[AllanMar]

I just keep adding it to the mash, waiting and checking until I get the pH I want.... After a few times you get a pretty good idea of how much to add, and usually get it in 1-2 tries. It's going to vary by water profile and grain bill though.

[GuingesRock]

Thanks, is there a calculator somewhere? or an amount to add per unit of PH drop required?

Susceptibility to microbial spoilage is reduced through ## Lower beer pH: beer spoilage organism don't grow below a pH of 4.4

I just checked the PH of a glass of beer I'm drinking. The PH is 4.39. The early mash PH was 5.5 and acid malt was used to bring down the PH.

[GuingesRock]

Kirsten, it isn't just brewing science that's "crap" so don't take it personally. I see the same kinds of things going on in medical science and I'm very sceptical when I read this stuff.

As an example read this (everyone should read it): http://chriskresser.com/new-study-puts- ... ase-coffin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Turns out Atkins was right. We've been goaded into eating low fat (high carb) diets for so long and it's responsible for the epidemic of obesity. The study in the American journal of nutrition has turned everything on its head. That stupid Canada's food guide pyramid has driven me nuts for so long. Finally people are waking up and after years and years, doctors are now no longer advising against saturated fat because "it's bad for your heart".

People make too many assumptions and extrapolations in the name of science.

[GuingesRock]

Bru'n Water calculates acid additions. https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/home/files" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[GuingesRock]

I got some 88% pharmaceutical grade phosphoric acid from my friendly local pharmacist. Calculated how much I need in Bru'n water (10mls for 16.12 gal strike water ...full vol. mash) for a target PH of 5.3. Going to give it a try at the weekend. I think I'll add it to the full volume of water before mashing in, and hope for the best. The program looks reasonably reliable.

edit: typo corrected (PH)

[AllanMar]

I got some 88% pharmaceutical grade phosphoric acid from my friendly local pharmacist. Calculated how much I need in Bru'n water (10mls for 16.12 gal strike water ...full vol. mash) for a target PH of 7.3. Going to give it a try at the weekend. I think I'll add it to the full volume of water before mashing in, and hope for the best. The program looks reasonably reliable.

10mls for pH of 7.3? Seems like a typo in there somewhere.

I wouldn't recommending adding it all and hoping for the best... You have a pH meter, add it in steps and check it until you know what your doing.

[GuingesRock]

I got some 88% pharmaceutical grade phosphoric acid from my friendly local pharmacist. Calculated how much I need in Bru'n water (10mls for 16.12 gal strike water ...full vol. mash) for a target PH of 7.3. Going to give it a try at the weekend. I think I'll add it to the full volume of water before mashing in, and hope for the best. The program looks reasonably reliable.

10mls for pH of 7.3? Seems like a typo in there somewhere.

I wouldn't recommending adding it all and hoping for the best... You have a pH meter, add it in steps and check it until you know what your doing.

Thanks, Yes typo ... 10mls for a PH of 5.3.

Edit: now I'm thinking 5mls for a PH of 5.5.

Good theory page: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mr x]

Yeah, as Allan said, go slow with acid at that strength.

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[GuingesRock]

Thanks for the advice,

7 is a lucky number, so I'll try 7 mls, aiming for a PH of 5.4, plus there's room for a bit of error wither way.

I just heard back from CHBS and their gallon jugs of phosphoric acid are not food grade. I think their lactic acid is though. There doesn't seem to be on online supplier of phosphoric acid for home brewers (hint hint Dave).

I love that Bru'n water spreadsheet. http://www.brewnosers.org/forums/viewto ... 648#p94504" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; If you send a small donation he emails you an upgraded version.

[mr x]

Hydroponics store.

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